Originally Posted By X-san Yup. And we wonder why we're being considered as lowly and inhumane as China and Russia these days.
Originally Posted By DAR <<They don't deserve basic habeus corpus or even human rights either. They'll never have a hearing of their charges, never get to face their accusers, never be convicted of anything. They'll be imprisoned and mistreated and even tortured - by us - americans - possibly forever, with no recourse. Our government says they're guilty and that's all we need to know. After all, they would never lie to us, would they? >> And who speaks up for those that are victims of terrorism? Who comes to their aide? Why should those that perputate such heinous acts get a fair shake? Did their victims get a chance?
Originally Posted By gadzuux How do we know that these people did anything? Short answer - we don't. All we know is that they've been apprehended, spirited away, and locked away for years in inhumane conditions. Add the people who did this have taken every step possible to avoid any kind of accountability for their actions.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf I know people hate the comparison of the US to the Roman Empire, but there are some interesting parallels. Rome was a republic (like we are) for hundreds of years until the time of Caesar. Romans had a strong sense of nationalism (i.e. patritotism) and to be called Roman was a great thing. Just prior to Caesar, the senate was very corrupt and worked harder toward representing their own interests than those of the common citizen. And this seems the case today as well. Our politicians are out of touch and insult us by saying things they think we want to hear rather than things they believe - whatever gets them into power. So history might tell us that we are going down that same path. The inefficacy of our Congress combined with 9/11 almost created another Caesar in Bush - he certainly reined in an awful amount of power for himself and his government alarmingly fast. But thankfully, I think we are surviving it. However, more situations will arise like this if history is to be our guide. And the reason for it is that America is in decline. Keep in mind, Rome never truly "fell", it simply fell into decline for centuries until the Church, the Goths, the Lombards and others took over. One last point: the Romans sought to suppress other nations rather than work with them - it was more effective and profitable for them to do it this way while they had the superior military might. Things went badly when their enemies began to fight back and they were stretched too thin to be effective against all their enemies at once. Now take a look at the US right now. We are fighting a couple wars against small enemies and we are stretched to our max militarily. What would happen if China, or North Korea, or Iran or Venezuela started to fight back? I think we should try to talk to and work with everyone as much as we can and stop being the world's bully. Yes, we are thetoughest kid on the block right now, but the smaller kids figure out we can be knocked down if they all come after us at once then we're doomed.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I try to compare like with like - San Francisco with London, and Santa Barbara with Brighton. there is a widening gap.>> I think that is more perception than reality. I think it is likely that because of crime, etc. poor areas in America look worse than poor areas in Britain. It was hard to tell though. You guys hide your poverty statistics pretty well. Maybe that’s why you think you don't have much. I can Google any city in America and find the poverty rate within minutes. Although I was able to find London statistics pretty easily, finding data on Brighton was very difficult, and in the end had to be kind of pieced together. At any rate... Poverty rate San Francisco 10% Poverty rate London 25% Poverty rate Santa Barbara 13.4% Poverty rate Brighton 20%
Originally Posted By DAR <<How do we know that these people did anything? Short answer - we don't. All we know is that they've been apprehended, spirited away, and locked away for years in inhumane conditions. Add the people who did this have taken every step possible to avoid any kind of accountability for their actions. >> Well we do know that one of the people we're holding was one of the masterminds behind the 9/11 attacks. His name escapes me but you've seen the picture, the rather hairy fellow with torn t-shirt. That's a pretty good reason to hold him.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And the reason for it is that America is in decline.>> Explain yourself. How? Despite some bad times under Bush, our standard of living is still higher than ever before. We have a problem in real estate but our bubble is nothing compared to the one Japan recently suffered through. Although No Child Left Behind sucks in some ways, the literacy of High School graduates is definitely increasing. Health care is a problem, and something we need to work on. It is easy to say if the Europeans can do it why can't we? I'm sure we could. But you might want to check with Dave and see what percentage of his income goes to taxes. The price of gas seems outrageous, but is still low compared to what most of the world pays. We are not like Rome. We have not been vastly expanding the territory we have under our control. We also haven’t really been a world power for very long. No one considered us a world power prior to WWII. And there are only two brief periods in our history where we could be considered the only world power. There were about 5 years from the end of WWII until the USSR developed and tested their own nuclear weapon. Then we had about 9 good years from the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991 until the advent of King George in 2001. But that is 14 years of dominance in our 230+ year existence. I don’t see any comparison to Rome. We have NEVER been a world power in the way that they were. Outside of having a nincompoop for president, I don't see how we are in decline. And he goes away in 8 months.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Poverty rate San Francisco 10% Poverty rate London 25%> Are those rates based on the same criteria? If not, they're an apple and an orange. If London's poverty rate is based on a different level of income, then you can't compare. Also, any poor person in London can get good quality health care if he gets sick or injured. In SF or any other US city? Probably not.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<In SF or any other US city? Probably not.>> No, the poor get pretty good health care (if they choose to use it) through Medicaid. In the U.S. it is those in the middle class who are most likely not to have any medical coverage.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Why the Europeans have better public health care: National Tax Burden 1. Sweden: 51.1% 2. Denmark: 49.7% 3. Belgium: 45.4% 4. Norway: 45.0% 5. Finland: 44.5% 6. France: 44.3% 7. Iceland: 42.4% 8. Austria: 41.9% 9. Italy: 41.0% 10. Czech Republic: 38.5% 11. Luxembourg: 37.6% 12. UK: 37.2% 13. Hungary: 37.1% 14. New Zealand: 36.6% 15. Spain: 35.8% 16. Germany: 34.7% 17. Canada: 33.5% 18. Turkey: 32.3% 19. Ireland: 30.5% 20. Switzerland: 30.0% 21. Slovakia: 29.4% 22. USA: 26.8% 23. Korea: 25.6% 24. Mexico: 19.8% Would I want my taxes to go up almost 40% to provide universal health care in the U.S.? No way.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <No, the poor get pretty good health care (if they choose to use it) through Medicaid. > It's better than nothing, but I'm guessing you've never been on Medicaid. <Would I want my taxes to go up almost 40% to provide universal health care in the U.S.? No way.> Would I trade the US's 26.8% for the UK's 37.2 to get it? Yes, I would. Especially since the total amount out of pocket is better for most people under a universal care system. I believe davewasbaloo, who has lived under both systems, would say yes too. If you're lucky enough to have employer-funded care (a rapidly disappearing luxury), you may feel differently.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Oh, I should point out that even employer-funded insurance isn't "free." That's money your employer could presumably use to pay you a higher salary, and insurance premiums going to middle men cost US industry a pretty penny. A single-payer system has all kinds of logic going for it that ultimately lowers the cost.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<US's 26.8% for the UK's 37.2>> That was the data I used. That would be a 40% increase in taxes. 26.8 * 40% = 10.7 26.8 + 10.7 = 37.5
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I didn't question your math, I questioned whether universal health care is worth that paid in taxes. In most countries that have it, most citizens answer a resounding yes.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Well we do know that one of the people we're holding was one of the masterminds behind the 9/11 attacks. His name escapes me but you've seen the picture, the rather hairy fellow with torn t-shirt. That's a pretty good reason to hold him.*** What evidence have you seen, Dar? Aside from what the government told you via the splashy headline on CNN along with the embarrassing photo (a "message to the other terrorists", right?), I mean? I am NOT saying the guy didn't do it. What I am saying is that normally a trial is used to determine guilt or innocence. You're willing to throw that all away due to your anger. Which is understandable for a person. Unforgivable for a government, though.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <What I am saying is that normally a trial is used to determine guilt or innocence.> Not during wartime. Soldiers that are captured are held until the end of the conflict. Spies and guerillas were usually shot. The guys being held at Guantanamo are getting due process - their cases are being reviewed by military lawyers and tribunals are being held. Eventually they'll be let go, or charged with war crimes.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Well we do know that one of the people we're holding was one of the masterminds behind the 9/11 attacks. His name escapes me but you've seen the picture, the rather hairy fellow with torn t-shirt. That's a pretty good reason to hold him.> His name is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. And when our military says he confessed to all manner of terrorist crimes, I believe them.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Mr X, World Disney and I are all US ex pats, and yet I feel we have similar world views. People in the US are fed propaganda (and elsewhere too) and buy it hook, line and sinker. There is much there is great about the US, just as there is much to be improved." In and of itself, I take issue with an ex-pat telling me what this country is like within and going even further to say that we are "fed the propaganda" and "buy it hook, line and sinker". I'm here, I didn't leave. I see it from within the justice system and there's a lot about the people that pass though that's wrong. I also realize the damage Bush has done to our country's reputation. We're far, far from perfect. That being said, I'd rather be here than anywhere else.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> And when our military says he confessed to all manner of terrorist crimes, I believe them. << The military also tacitly admits that they tortured him. Therefore anything he "confessed" to is not only inadmissable in an actual court, it's actually meaningless. He would have confessed to everything from masterminding 9/11 to killing anne frank. It's fine that you believe them, but a conviction requires more than just your gut hunch - or faith in the probity of our government.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Soldiers that are captured are held until the end of the conflict.*** They're not being treated as soldiers. That's a big part of the issue. And like I said, there will never be an end to the "war on terror" any moreso than there will be an end to the "war on drugs" (when did that "conflict" start again). It's completely idiotic for you to actually refer to this situation as a war. It isn't. It's an endless campaign. Which means those guys will be held indefinitely (how long has it been so far anyway?).
