Originally Posted By X-san ***And when our military says he confessed to all manner of terrorist crimes, I believe them.*** If so, why not put him on trial, have him repeat his confessions for all to hear, and then execute him? Is it possible *gasp* that these confessions were coerced and thus inadmissable? Probably. Like I said, I'm not saying he didn't do it. I believe the military on this one too. But where's the trial?
Originally Posted By DVC_dad It's nice to see the true colors of a few people on this topic. We've all been down this road before, this topic came up about a year or more ago. I think I'll continue to call the place home, raise my family here, and shake my head over those who can only see the bad, with no desire to see the good. The truth is friends, we've never been "the good guys." That way of thinking is flawed from the start. There is no "good guys."
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<That being said, I'd rather be here than anywhere else. >>> I couldn't agree more.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad It's so easy to point the finger than look in the mirror. Since we are all lound and wear guns and cowboy hats, let me quote my favorite Western Movie, Unforgiven. The Schofield Kid: "Well serves him right! He had it comin' !" William Munny (played by Clint Eastwood): "We all got it comin' kid."
Originally Posted By X-san ***<<<I am a proud American.>>> No, you're not.*** Who are you to say that to someone? You don't know him. You're insinuating he's not proud of his country (and thus you're ALSO insulting his heritage as well, nice) because he has some negative things to say? Guess what, MOST Americans have negative things to say about America today. Check out the polls, proud guy. Of course, you'll have to remove your head from the sand first.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <The military also tacitly admits that they tortured him.> No, the CIA waterboarded him. <Therefore anything he "confessed" to is not only inadmissable in an actual court, it's actually meaningless.> They didn't waterboard him for a confession, they waterboarded him to gain information that saved lives.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <If so, why not put him on trial, have him repeat his confessions for all to hear, and then execute him?> You know, if you spent more time reading, and less time insulting people, you'd know the answer to that. If we put him on trial, his lawyers would have the right to discovery. We'd have to reveal how we gained the information about him. That could reveal things to the enemy that we don't want them to know. That's what happened in 1993, during the trial for the first WTC bombing.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh And it's odd that everybody hates us, but France and Germany just elected leaders that were friendlier to us.
Originally Posted By dshyates " they waterboarded him to gain information that saved lives." As claimed by the people who tortured him. But they didn't reveal what info they got or who it saved. It is a claim by the administration to justify their actions. And people like you, Doug, buy it, vote for it and defend it. And I'm glad your proud of what we have done. I really wish I could see it like you do. I would be a lot happier person.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Guess what, MOST Americans have negative things to say about America today. Check out the polls, proud guy.>> I think where DVC is coming from is that Dave seems to see only the negative and not the positive. And from my point of view he is exaggerating the negative. Sure, there are things I don't like about America. I think the growing inequality of income distribution needs to be addressed and corrected. I think the whole neo-con approach to policy has been found to be totally without merit and should never be considered again. I think the whole concept of pre-emptive war is disgusting. I think health care costs in the US are out of control, led by the unbelievable cost of drugs. But in my opinion that is the problem we face -- not one of access. I don't see how universal care will do anything to control costs. So yes, I do see things wrong with the United States. But I think some of the talk about a declining America and such are extreme overstatements. Sure, the general public mood is in the toilet because of the complete failure of the Bush administration over the last four years. But thank God the United States is not going to be destroyed by one president. We've had bad presidents before and we will have bad ones again (as will every other country on earth). But let's not get carried away. Our international image and our self-image may have suffered in the past four years, but the country itself is strong. And accuse me of jingoism if you want, but I still feel the opportunities available in the United States far exceed those in any other country. In my opinion we are not only the strongest country on earth, but we are also the most free and (GASP!!) the most moral country on earth. We've been lead by a crazed cowboy over the past eight years. But America in decline? Gimme a break.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> They didn't waterboard him for a confession, they waterboarded him to gain information that saved lives. << >> As claimed by the people who tortured him. << Exactly. A self serving claim that has never been substantiated. But some people will believe it anyway - they need to, in order to maintain their support of this administration. And it's not easy for them - being a bush supporter means they also have to support barbaric acts of torture and the mistreatment of prisoners. They have to disavow basic human rights. They have to discredit the validity of the geneva conventions. They have to excuse the lies that got us into this war in the first place. They have to ignore the white house press secretary when he publicly states that the president and his cabinet lied to get us into this war. They have to excuse the secretary of state lying to the united nations - in front of the world. They have to excuse the president himself lying to the UN. They have to turn a blind eye when this administration deliberately conspires to "out" a covert CIA operative as political payback for pointing out the president's lies. They have to justify the president pardoning white house officials that have been convicted of federal crimes - namely 'lying under oath' - repeatedly. Yes, it's tough times for the remaining ragtag group of bush apologists. For the rest of us, we can call it for what it is - corruption of our government.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I'm glad your proud of what we have done.> Proud? No. But I understand the need for it.
Originally Posted By DAR <<The military also tacitly admits that they tortured him. Therefore anything he "confessed" to is not only inadmissable in an actual court, it's actually meaningless. He would have confessed to everything from masterminding 9/11 to killing anne frank>> Khaled Sheik Mohammed came up with a plan for his fellow scumbags to fly planes they never could have invented to kill a few thousand of my countrymen. And we're supposed to treat him fairly. Screw that.
Originally Posted By dshyates "And we're supposed to treat him fairly. Screw that." YES, Fairly. And justly. And with due process. Then kill him as his crimes warrent. That's what makes us the good guys. With great power comes great responsibility. Misuse that power, and you will lose it.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh We did a lot worse in WWII, and came out okay. There are definitely places where the line must be drawn. Detaining terrorists, and waterboarding their leaders, is not it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Our trying to do the "right thing" in Iraq led to our downfall. As DD mentions above, we just abused the hell out of human rights during WWII. Can you imagine the shrieks of outrage if we rounded up every Muslim in the US and put them in camps? We did that to the Japanese in WWII and everyone pretty much overlooks it. Can you imagine the international howls or protest if we intentionally killed 100's of thousands of civilians like we did with nuclear weapons in Japan? Yet we pretty much got a free pass for that one too. Why? The world loves winners, and we came out of WWII big time winners. They hated us in Vietnam. Why? We lost. They loved us in Desert Storm. Why? We kicked Iraqi ass. It's kind of like when your football team is winning. Everyone wants to hop on the bandwagon of a winner. The United States seems to have forgotten that we are far better off pissing off a bunch of people and winning QUICKLY than trying to fight wars without hurting civilians that drag on forever. We should NEVER get involved in a war unless we are willing to kill a bunch of civilians. Especially in a time of terrorism, that is the only way we will ever win. If we don't have the stomach for that (which I would hope in most cases we don't) then stay the hell out. What was our critical mistake with Iraq II? We didn't take control immediately. We were so concerned that we be viewed as liberators and not occupiers that we let the criminal element in the country run wild. If we had put tight curfews in place in Baghdad and shot looters on sight right from the beginning we would have been out of there three years ago. Instead, we pretty much advertised to the bad guys that they might as well do whatever they wanted because we weren't going to try to stop them. If we would have gone into Iraq and been absolutely ruthless in our quest for complete victory we would have been out of there long ago. Our image in the world would also be a whole lot better. They like winners. They forget about a bunch of dead civilians a lot quicker than they forget about an extended occupation resulting in stalemate. We should never, ever engage in war unless we are willing to do ANYTHNG to win. If we are not willing to do that; don’t go to war. It really doesn’t seem to be that difficult a concept to grasp.
