Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Our trying to do the "right thing" in Iraq led to our downfall.> It's given us some difficulties, but hardly lead to our downfall.
Originally Posted By X-san ***the most moral country on earth*** Balderdash (even in granting you strongest and I'll go so far as to say ONE of the most free). Most MORAL? How the heck do you arrive at such a conclusion, given the crime rates? I'd say America is on a short list for being one of the LEAST moral countries in the world!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<How the heck do you arrive at such a conclusion, given the crime rates? I'd say America is on a short list for being one of the LEAST moral countries in the world!>> Why do we have one of the highest crime rates in the world? I'm sure there are a number of reasons, but one of them is that we give more rights to the accused than any other nation on earth (unless Dubya suspects you of being an Islamic terrorist). Is this a good thing? A moral thing? Yes, I think so. The fact that OJ went free under our justice system is a bad thing. That fact that OJ could go free under our justice system is a very good thing. I would rather let 10 guilty people go free than convict 1 person who was innocent. I personally cannot imagine anything worse than going to prison for a crime you did not commit. That is my own personal definition of Hell. I believe that we still give a substantially larger portion of out Federal budget in foreign aid than any other country on earth. Is this always good? I'm not sure. Perhaps we should give less to Bangladesh and more to New Orleans. But I like knowing that wherever there is a tragedy on earth, the US is there trying to help... even in cases where the tragedy happens in a country that is our 'enemy'. If Iran or Korea had an earthquake we would send aid. I'm not sure any other county on earth would respond that way to an avowed enemy. We struggle with things like abortion and gay marriage. Personally I think there should be no question on either. But I like the fact that it receives such attention in the United States. It means that we will never automatically do the expedient thing. That we will truly try to judge what is ‘morally correct’. Could the Nazi experiments in Eugenics ever happen in America? I doubt it. It would be so extremely easy to abandon Israel. There is probably nothing we could do that would so easily better out world image and reduce our conflicts. But that would be wrong. I am very proud of the U.S. standing by Israel even though it is not in our best interest to do so. Why do we do it? Because it is the right thing to do. Is the U.S. the most moral country in the world? Yes, I truly believe that it is.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> What was our critical mistake with Iraq II? We didn't take control immediately. << We had no business invading iraq in the first place. They had nothing to do with 9/11, they presented no threat to the american people, and as we've seen, offered no strategic advantage - quite the opposite. We bemoan how iraq has been a long hard slog, but we've been in afghanistan even longer - with no measureable results to show there either, and no end in sight. By diverting our resources into this "pre-emptive" war in iraq, we hampered our efforts in afghanistan. Bush will leave office in a few months, and osama bin laden will still be leading al qaeda. "Mission Accomplished" indeed.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<We had no business invading iraq in the first place. They had nothing to do with 9/11, they presented no threat to the american people, and as we've seen, offered no strategic advantage - quite the opposite.>> Did I ever say anything contrary to that? I don't think so. I said that if the U.S. went to war we should do whatever it takes to win. I also said that if we were unwilling to do that, we should never go to war in the first place. To me, Iraq definitely falls within the "never go to war in the first place" criteria.
Originally Posted By X-san ***one of them is that we give more rights to the accused than any other nation on earth*** I'd be more likely to go with gangs and guns myself. Sorry, Charlie. I don't buy that America is superior morally to a great many nations in the world. Just the fact alone that we're on the Amnesty Int. watch list right alongside Russia and China speaks to our nations morality as it stands today.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Just the fact alone that we're on the Amnesty Int. watch list right alongside Russia and China speaks to our nations morality as it stands today.>> Ah yes... Amnesty International. The PETA of human rights groups. :-/
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo SO much for me to say, so little time (I have a full work day today). So I need to keep it brief. 1st of all there are many great things about America, but this debate for me is about benchmarking and stating the issues that I feel need to be addressed. To be told I am not proud of my hesitage is way off Chris, you do not know how I feel. And roadtrip, how do you know the US is the most free. Have you every lived anywhere else? I actually feel like I have greater liberties in Europe. Add that to the fact that the US is not the only country that regularly gives aid. Guess what? So does the rest of the world. The diference is that the population of the US is higher and so is the wealth compared to other countries with similar population sizes. The records speak for themselves - America's human rights records are appaling. And you choose to live with it or fight to improve it. As a card carrying member of Amnesty, I choose to use my liberty to fight to improve the countries I love, while so called proud americans prefer to live in ignorance under the auspices of being perceived as number 1. Well, it seems there is little I can do to change your minds. And today I am a little more sickened by my fellow countrymen. Once upon a time, america strived to be better (so too did Disney). They didn't stop with the airplane because that was enough. No. We went on to put a man in space, then on the moon, and now aiming for Mars. Resting on one's laurels was not an option. Today, we get people resting on the laurels, criticising and berating those of us who critique and state how the American Adventure can be greater. So who is the proud American? Those who fight to imrpove, or those who tacitly support the status quo, a status quo that has been weighed, measured and been found wanting?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Dave, Your thoughts really don't surprise me a bit. You live in England. I don't care where you are born; a person is always going to have a natural prejudice for where they live now. After all, they have to make it the best in their mind or why in the hell would they live there? At this point I think that Minnesota is one of the greatest places to live in the United States. I’m sure that in 18 months when I have retired to Missouri all of a sudden I will think Missouri is the greatest place to live in the United States. You ask ANYONE what the greatest place to live is and at least 75% percent of them will respond with where they currently live. And this holds true even when you are living in the armpit of America (Alabama or Mississippi). No offense to those who live there... I know you residents think those states are great too. So I think there is a natural prejudice there and I don’t blame you because I would have it too. Priorities have changed in the United States over the past 35 years. At one point we put vast amounts of money into the Space program. Now we don’t put that much money into space, but we spend way more on protecting the environment. Is the environment as cool as space? No way. Is making our planet a better place to live more important than exploring space? Absolutely. People who came of age during the 60’s in the United States (like me) had this unbelievably idealistic vision of what the United States was then and could be now. Most of it was really garbage based on too much Panama Red and too little reality. All of us folk who were going to save the world now buy McMansions and SUV’s. Have we sold out? No, we’ve grown up. Those who have not lived here in the United States to experience that probably don’t understand the massive value change that occurred between 20 year old boomers in the 60’s and 50 year old boomers in the 90’s. We all sold out. Got a problem with that? Fine, but it is reality. I don’t see too many Europeans embracing the “Decade of Love†anymore either. Are things in America different now? Yes. Are they worse? I don’t’ think so. Our care of the environment is far better now than it was in the 60’s. Our acceptance of minorities is far better than it was in the 60’s. Can you imagine a debate over Gay Marriage in the 60’s? As if!! Our overall poverty rate in the United States has decreased tremendously. The access to health care increased dramatically following the advent the “Great Society†programs in the 60’s. I actually have a hard time thinking of a facet of American life that is worse today than it was 30 years ago. Well, crime is worse. Caused by continually increasing protection of the rights of the accused. Is that a bad thing? I really don’t know. I think it is an American thing, and one of those things that make us different from any other country on earth.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Well, crime is worse. Caused by continually increasing protection of the rights of the accused.*** Okay, you've said that twice now but I'd really like to see some actual research to back that up. It sounds like a nice, convenient argument to back up your position, but I find it hard to believe. If anything it might be a minor factor among many. The biggest difference I've noticed between America and two other countries I'm familiar with which have far lower crime rates (Japan and Canada) seems to be the easy access to guns common in America. Japan is probably not a good example, being entirely too different overall to begin with, but as far as Canada goes do you really think they are so different as far as the rights of the accused is concerned? Holland? Switzerland? All have drastically lower crime rates than America, is it because criminals in those countries enjoy no rights? Hardly.
Originally Posted By X-san ***one of those things that make us different from any other country on earth.*** That sounds like propaganda to me. Sure, America IS one of the greatest countries on Earth. I would never argue with you on that point. But there are many others these days, and they're not so "different" as you seem to think. The whole "my country is better than your country" argument reminds me oh so much of the "my god is better than your god"...just so much posturing with no real facts to back it up.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Sure, America IS one of the greatest countries on Earth. I would never argue with you on that point. But there are many others these days, and they're not so "different" as you seem to think.<<< totally agree. And I am not saying my country is much better. More to the point, I am trying to say I think the US is not greater than a fair few others. Reality is I think I would prefer to live on the main contenent. But anything past ordering a cup of coffee, my wife cannot speak any other foreign languages, and although I can speak 5, none of them to do the tye of work I do now.
Originally Posted By X-san ***And I am not saying my country is much better.*** By all accounts I've heard from friends the U.K. totally rocks. WAY too expensive though! (doesn't it suck having a guy from TOKYO tell you that!? ;p)
Originally Posted By X-san ***Sure, America IS one of the greatest countries on Earth.*** I need to follow up on this, because though I do believe it I ALSO believe that this new millennium so far has been one of more shameful periods for our great experiment. I firmly believe that history will not look kindly upon it.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Again, we agree here too. The UK is expensive. And also add in Road trip's tax figures are a smoothed mean average. The reality is people on earnings over $80,000 per annum pay about 45% tax(though University is subsidised - a Bachelor's runs about $8000, and when I went, it was free). Sales Tax is 17.5% and there are a number of other taxes. I think salaries are higher too - McDonald's worker $12-16 per hour, Teacher $70,000 - $100,000 per year. Junior Admin $40-50k Programmer - $110k Middle Manager PLC $70-140K Lawyer - ave £120-$160k Merchant Banker - $120k-1.2m per year Doctor $160k-$400k Weather sucks here though, our houses are small too. And theme parks and casino's are a joke.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder At what point can ex-pats no longer say "we" when referring to the U.S.? If they don't adopt the plural for whatever country they've been in are they simply people without a country? I grew up in Chicago, but haven't lived there since 1974. I identify with it, love it there, visit when I can, but I'm no more a Chicagoan than the Dalai Lama. I'm a Los Angeleno, for better or worse, or a Californian, at a minimum, seeing as how I've lived in various parts of Southern California since 1974. I've always wondered about that.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo SPP - I think after a while one can feel displaced no matter where they are. The Americans no longer consider me American. The British certainly do not consider me British, and I sometimes worry when immigration laws change, will I lose my place here. I find I take most comfort in other internationals. I mean Walt Disney was born in Chicago, he spent most of his years in SoCal, and yet he loved his years in Marceline. Where was he entitled to voice his opinion. One of the things that has always brought me great comfort on LP are folks like X and World Disney where we share some common bonds. I do not feel as isolated then. I cannot vote in either country, and so it seems my views are not welcome either. And I wonder why I get down sometimes.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Thank you X for the insults. Yes, I in fact do have my head in the sand. Insult he who insults your buddy; makes sense. On the other hand, Dave, I apologize. I have no idea how you feel about having been born American. X you know nothing about me. Yet you lump me in with the ignorant American who blindly waves the flag, and shouts "we're number one!" to the world. Truth be told, I do know a thing or two about our world outside of the US, but it isn't the point. Tell me X, just when were we "the good guys?" Again Dave, sorry for the comment.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Thank you Chris for your apology. I will admit I was angered and hurt. I have dedicated my life, literly to trying to improve my part of the world (and others). I am passionate about it. And yet, I cannot vote where I am. The Uk will let me if I get dual citizenship, but the US won't allow that. And as I am a proud American, I will not denounce my US citizenship. It does eat me up. My mom who is a proud cherokee woman is considering denouncing her citizenship, but I will not. But to be told that my opinion is moot, well frankly it's like waving a red flag to a bull. I chose to not go with with my gut replies, knowing that the time will pass. I just hope some of the hurt does too. Personally, I believe it is the right and responsibility for every human being to speak up if they see a miscarriage of justice. And so I do. But as each day goes on, I am thinking of giving up? Why bother? Nothing we do makes a difference right? Our lives don't matter right? Well, sadly, each day that passes I wonder if my energy has been misplaced. If the reality is we are no better than animals. We kid ourselves otherwise.
