Originally Posted By DVC_dad I’ve given this thread far more thought than I feel is due, but I’m at my wife’s office “fixing the internet access privileges†which took all of 5 minutes, so I’ve got the time. Here is my feeling on the whole “remember when we were the good guys†thing. This morning as I was driving my oldest son to his last day of school, (the other kids were finished last week as they go to a different school) we whipped into McDonald’s for a healthy and calorie free breakfast of McGriddles, Hash Browns, and perhaps the greatest thing about America Coca Cola! As we sat there eating, I hopped on the iPhone and read this thread. I had been a little uneasy about my comment to you, Dave in the first place, and I wanted to take my WE lumps early, get them out of the way. X-san, you caught me off guard, but it’s all good. Just as you come to Dave’s aid, I also come to the aid of what is dear to me. There is nothing wrong with that, its human nature. I posted a comment earlier, and then drove on to my son’s school, then to my wife’s office. As I drove I began to really REALLY consider America and what exactly she is. As I sipped my Coke and added to my “Middle Aged American Dad Body Fat Index,†I began really trying to strike at what being American truly means to me. (Skip this paragraph….it’s meaningless fluff) Approaching a traffic light, I admired the beautiful, gleaming, shiny black Mercedes Sedan next to me. As I pulled up, I noticed the fraternity letters on the tag. As I drew up next to the driver, I observed a physically fit, clean cut, impeccably dressed African American Man of around 40’ish. I was driving our 1991 Volvo 940 Wagon, with it’s 235,000+ miles. Probably sensing I was staring at him, the gentleman looked at me, gave “the nod†which I returned, and we both looked away. As far as I could tell, he didn’t need any help of any kind. We were indifferent to each other. As the light changed to green he sped, and I crawled forward. Eventually I had to take a short two exit run on the freeway, against traffic. As I was leaving I-75 north, approaching the end of the off ramp, I saw a shocking sight, especially in light of this topic. I saw an old, long-time unshaven white man, standing next to an old bag of some kind, holding a makeshift sign. He looked at me, I at him. No nods. His sign read, “Homeless Veteran, Please Help.†I stuck a buck out the window, being careful to not let my skin touch his, I dropped the bill into his filthy hand. Thank God the light changed and I quickly drove on. At the next light, I looked over to see a young mother in a mini-van, with a baby in the back that appeared to be crying. The mom did not notice me. She was too busy trying to console her child from the front seat. For some unknown reason, I felt compassionate, having been there and done that. At this point I began to see people as just people. Some have needs that others don’t. Some have problems (either by their own doing or not) that others don’t. Some get the help they need while others don’t. The world just keeps on turning. Suddenly, Dave’s comment of, “I am a citizen of the world,†began making some sense to me. Of course, you really can’t help everyone, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try. Keep fighting the fight Dave! It matters to those you are able to help. Okay moving on… To me, America is most certainly the greatest country in the world. Are other countries great as well? Absolutely! I would hope that most UK citizens think theirs is the greatest. To them, it probably is. Germans, French, Italians, Russians, Turks, on and on… I think my country is the greatest, but that is mostly because it is where I live, where I was born, where I raise my family, where I will probably die, where I will be buried, and where I will, in time, be forgotten. To me, the United States is like a wife. I love her, I care for her, I defend her, I admit she has her problems for sure, however (and this doesn’t make it right) there is NO country that is free of fault, and no woman nor wife that is free of imperfections. Still, I love my wife and I am with her. I am married to her, I am a part of her, and she part of me. I will scold and do my best to correct her in private (on a national level…within the system) but we are one, united, when it comes to each other’s family, each other’s friends, each other’s foes, (to those who hate her.) a list that gets longer by the day and much of which is her own doing I’ll certainly agree. When another person (be it family, be it friend, be it enemy) lays out negatives about my wife, or points out her flaws, what kind of husband, lover, friend would I be to take no offense? “Oh hell no buddy, that’s my wife you’re talking about!†I love my wife. I love my country. I love my God. I defend all. I am not ignorant of the MANY wrongs we have done, problems we have as a nation, mistakes we have made in the world arena, less than stellar leaders we have had in D.C., and so on. But there is pointing out issues and poor historical choices, bad politics etc., and then there is commenting with a nature of intended malice and hate. Like a wife, she is not perfect, but the responsibility to champion her is natural. (So is the responsibility to recognize problems and act on them.) But just as easy as spewing them out in the form of insults and “I told you so’s†flaws and problems can be addressed in positive ways. It’s not a bad idea to offer some solutions when pointing out said negatives. If someone says, “Your wife is a real _____!†They then may pick them selves up and dust them selves off quickly. However, if the same person says, “Your wife has a problem with ____________ and because I care, I think this might help her.†That sort of approach is welcomed and appreciated. So, yes, the pointed problems and short comings of the US, do fall on sensitive ears when they come my way. I don’t deny they exist. I don’t want to sweep them under the rug and pretend they aren’t there. I suppose to me, what get’s my goat is how easy it is to flippantly hurl the problems of the US out from some remote ivory tower; to harp on the same things over and over, while doing absolutely nothing to improve anything... especially when the insults come from someone who seems to be totally uninterested in change, but would rather see the US eat crow. It gets hard to tell “who is for us and who is against us†when no solutions are suggested or no work to effect change is performed by those who complain. In my family, my children get along somewhat well, but my kids do fight and argue now and then. We have what has become our (for lack of a better word) mantra of sorts. When two kids fight, I say to them, “What is the family motto?†To which they reply, “We build each other’s tower up, we don’t knock it down.†Then I smile, put the offending kids in time out, and on we go. I suppose what I mean by that is, cooperation is a bit more constructive than divisiveness. If we are all to be “citizens of the world†we should build each other up, help each other to change. We will never get anywhere tearing each other down. I appreciate Road Trip’s approach. He is defending his country without tearing down others. That’s a hard thing to do. So basically here is my simple conclusion to this far too long winded rant. Put up, or shut up.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Okay, you've said that twice now but I'd really like to see some actual research to back that up. It sounds like a nice, convenient argument to back up your position, but I find it hard to believe. If anything it might be a minor factor among many.>> OK... you are right. I don't have any hard research to back it up. On the other hand, I've never read that any other country has a process similar to our Miranda warning. If you've ever been arrested in Japan perhaps you can educate me. ;-) I also continually read about cops complaining that the work they do doesn't accomplish much. The old revolving door... cops arrest them; judges let them out. I'm not sure that is a bad thing. As I said before, I think protecting the rights of the accused is extremely important. I believe that the United States pushes that further than any other country. But hard evidence? I have none. I didn't mention one other area that is responsible for a huge amount of crime in the United States... illegal drugs. I've read that something like 40% of the people in prison are there because of drug related crimes. I don't know how other countries seem to escape this problem, but we seem unable to do much about it. As far as guns contributing to our overall crime rate, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong. I don't like guns. I've never owned one and never will. I think handguns should be illegal. But are they responsible for the crime rate? I don't think so. The drug dealers would deal with or without guns. I would agree that the availability of guns means that more crimes turn lethal, but the crime would be there with or without the gun. As I've said in my other posts... I certainly don't think the U.S. is perfect. There are a lot of things that could be better. I just felt that some of the comments have been excessively harsh. I'm afraid that the U.S. is in the same position as Disney. Because we have been excellent in the past (or perceived that way) we are continually held to a higher standard. That is not necessarily bad, but folks should take that into account. Dave holds Disney's feet to the fire; he holds the United States’ feet to the fire. The man is certainly consistent, I'll give him that.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<I just felt that some of the comments have been excessively harsh.>>> You know, I could have skipped the 1,000 word essay and just said this! ;-p
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "Dave holds Disney's feet to the fire; he holds the United States’ feet to the fire. The man is certainly consistent, I'll give him that." And it is because I care. Lord knows I could probably better use my time. For me awareness is the first step. Then setting a target, and then creating the path. I also hold alot in the UK and Europe to the fire as it were. I just no longer post this stuff because people don't seem interested in stuff outside of the US.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo If the thread was about what is great with America, I would add plenty. But I did not perceive this thread in this way.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <You know, I could have skipped the 1,000 word essay and just said this! ;-p> Actually, DVCdad, that was quite a nice essay.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 As for Khalid Sheik Mohammed, there was plenty of good intelligence on him being behind 9/11 - we didn't just pull his name out of a hat. The waterboarding was still wrong, IMO, but he was not just a run of the mill guy, and almost certainly guilty. That's very different from other people we've sent to Guantanamo without charge, quite a few of whom were turned over to us by rival factions with a grudge or by bounty hunters simply out to get the bounty. That was the case with Murat Kurnaz, who was held without charge, tortured, and kept for years after our own military intelligence considered him innocent of anything. This shows the danger of the lawlessness and unacountability that currently is being carried out in the name of the "war on terror." <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/60minutes/main3976928.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...28.shtml</a> "They used to beat me when my head is underwater. They beat me into my stomach and everything," he says. "They were hitting you in the stomach while you're head was underwater so that you'd have to take a breath?" Pelley asks, "Right. I had to drink. I had to…how you say it?" Kurnaz replies. "Inhale. Inhale the water," Pelley says. "I had to inhale the water. Right," Kurnaz says. Kurnaz says the Americans used a device to shock him with electricity that made his body go numb. And he says he was hoisted up on chains suspended by his arms from the ceiling of an aircraft hangar for five days. "Every five or six hours they came and pulled me back down. And the doctor came to watch if I can still survive to not. He looked into my eyes. He checked my heart. And when he said okay, then they pulled me back up," Kurnaz says. "The point of the doctor's visit was not to treat you. It was to see if you could take another six hours hanging from the ceiling?" Pelley asks. "Right," Kurnaz says." (snip) "Kurnaz isn't alone in these allegations: other freed prisoners have described electric shocks at Kandahar, and even U.S. troops have admitted beating prisoners who were hanging by their arms. Kurnaz's story fits a pattern." (snip) "But far worse than the false charges was the secret government file that Azmy uncovered. Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S." At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz’s innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks." But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002. "
Originally Posted By ecdc I think some of us get overly reactionary to claims that "America's the greatest country in the world" or "America has the most freedoms" because in a lot of ways, those things can be measured. And you know what, America isn't the greatest. Looking at health care, technological innovation, education, etc., etc., America is no longer on top. It's not about bashing our country to say this, either. Anyone can blindly stumble around claiming we're the greatest out of some sort of misplaced pride. But it's showing more love and more pride for your country by admitting the truth so it can be fixed. If we recognize that we're not number one, we can take the steps to become number one again. But if we keep insisting, despite all evidence to the contrary, that we are the best, then we're in denial and can't really do much to improve. Saying we're the best when we're not isn't helping America, it's hurting it. Furthermore, it's been my limited experience that those who say they love America the most are those that know the least about it. I don't say this as a jab or criticism, but rather as a reality. If you're ignorant of your country's history, then it's easy to embrace the myths about it and not have to process some deeply troubling actions. Likewise, those who say America is the most free are usually those who've never lived anywhere else. Patriotism has its place, but it can be harmful. Finally, to put some perspective on it, I think America is still one of the greatest countries in the world. I think without a whole lot of effort, we could return to being the greatest. It's foolish to present America as if it were along side Iran or Belize in world standing. But we've been on a downward trend for a while, and the last seven years have really seen the worst of it. Black sites? Gitmo? Torture? Pre-emptive wars? Outing a CIA agent? This isn't America, and it's not how one becomes the greatest. There's always been political sneakiness and some unethical behavior. Presidents have always appointed big donors to be the Ambassador of Luxembourg. But the last seven years has managed to erase a good deal of my national pride. I know there's those who will read that, their chests will swell with righteous indignation and their eyes will glisten with tears as they wrap themselves in the flag and say, "I will NEVER be disappointed or lose pride in my country." To which I respond, that's not a good thing. If your country does something disappointing, you should be disappointed in it. If your country engages in torture or outsources it to other countries, or starts wars without justification, then you have reason to have your pride falter a bit. Blind loyalty is dangerous and doesn't help America one iota. Thoughtful loyalty and wanting to improve the situation does.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Well said, ecdc. True patriotism is neither easy, nor uncritical.<< Thanks. I have a sense that it's getting better. I have sense that more and more people are tiring of this attitude that says, "Question the administration and you're not patriotic." I hope it's getting better, anyway.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo ecdc - I am totally with you. Democracy needs to be accountable to the people. But when the people do not take account of the actions with blind allegience, that is scary.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Yes agreed ecdc. Very well said. But you know a large portion of the masses in any country tend to be from this group here: <<<If you're ignorant of your country's history, then it's easy to embrace the myths about it and not have to process some deeply troubling actions. Likewise, those who say America is the most free are usually those who've never lived anywhere else.>>> I think that I certainly am part of this stated set of people, but I don't think I believe in myths. I don't think we are a nation where pride and duty and honor are things that are beyond reach and can be discarded as myth. I think much of the problem is apathy. I think somewhere along the way the general masses sort of quit caring. I hope I'm wrong. I'm all about something like this... "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds.... " Old Abe sort of had a good spin on things I think.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad We sure could use a fresh POTUS. A really really great one could at least get us headed in the right direction. I don't know if we've had that since Reagan. I can't really remember further back than him, so I have to go on what I've read and been told.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Reagan was not a 'really really great one'. I know there's a cult of personality that's been built up around him among GOP circles, but the facts just don't bear that out. I could go on with a litany of reagan's transgressions, but it's a well trod path. If reagan had a strong suit, it would be what came to be called "the vision thing". And even then it only became apparent by it's absence during the first bush administration. In all honesty, I don't believe any republican candidate can effectively do what needs to be done to help our nation recover - at least not at this point in our history. The republican party is so compromised, so saddled with with the baggage of corruption, so rife with competing special interests, that they need to be removed from power and given a chance to clean house and regroup.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Isn't that funny... much of the same claims were made at Clinton's departure when all things began to turn GOP. But yes, even I am not going to argue that this administration is leaving even greater wreckage than Clinton did. I agree with you as well gadzuux that it would befar more difficult as a GOP president to bring about the right kind of change, but having said that, I certainly do NOT think Obama is the one to do it.
Originally Posted By Elderp "That we will truly try to judge what is ‘morally correct’." I have two problems when it comes to "morality in America." 1) What you think is moral, might not be moral for me 2) We are a dichotomy when it comes to our government and morality. Morals come from belief and yet we say we have seperation of church of state. Yet, on the other hand, all of our money says "In God We Trust."
Originally Posted By X-san ***Tell me X, just when were we "the good guys?"*** Keep in mind, I said "good" not perfect. And I would say it was back when we were the leading opponent of expansionist fascism followed by expansionist communism. Ideologically speaking, our motives were more "good" than those of our enemies.
