Originally Posted By jonvn "The left puts on airs of tolerance and understanding" 1) I am not part of "the left." 2) I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, either tolerant or understanding.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>You mean their resigned that they can't tell other people how to live their lives? How upsetting it must be to no longer be able to make all of the rules for everyone else.<< Many evangelicals feel that is what is being done to them. For instance, many choose to homeaschool, yet many on the left are dedicated to thwarting the homeschooling movement. Its a two way street folks. And I believe that many on the left are unwilling to recognize this.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>1) I am not part of "the left." 2) I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, either tolerant or understanding.<< Thanks for clarifying. What would you consider yourself as being?
Originally Posted By jonvn Pretty much middle of the road. Some things left of center, some things right of center. Like any other frigging normal person.
Originally Posted By mele I didn't realize there is a huge movement to stop home schooling and I have lived almost my entire life in 2 of the most liberal states in the US. I'm going to assume that it's mostly a taxation issue, however, since no liberal I know cares what religion people practice in their homes.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>I'm quite intrigued by this actually, fkuricz, because you're a thoughtful person. What, exactly has the left been getting its way on lately? I can't think of a whole lot.<< <Compare the status quo with that from say 40 years ago: Abortion on demand is the law of the land. While in many some states discrimination against homosexuals is still legal, in many states much progress has been made in that cause, including same sex marriage in Massachusetts. Public schools have been fully secularized. Observance of religion in the public square has been marginalized (a good example was the valedictorian girl who had the PA yanked on her when she was stating to mention how her faith plays a major role in her life). I would say that these changes have happened slowly over the decades, kind of like the frog in the pot of water thats being slowly heated to boling.> Compared to 40 years ago? Yes, there's been a lot of progress that would appeal to liberals. After all, 40 years ago, black people had only just won the effective right to vote in a large part of the country, it was the rare gay person who felt safe enough to be out, married women could not even own their own businesses in many states, etc. etc. But when I said "exactly has the left been getting its way on lately lately" I meant more like the last 10 or 20 years. It seems to me the right has been much more ascendent (and aggressive) in those years. And yet, as Mele says, some evangelicals insist (in my view) on feeling victimized; I've seen no "movement" to restrict homeschooling. What do they base this on?
Originally Posted By jonvn They base it on the need to be the victim, so that the troops will rally around, regardless of the logic or need for any of it. If you aren't in constant crisis, people will start to question. And if your leadership is rather shaky, and the foundations of your ideas weak, those questions can be rather embarassing or damaging to your cause. So, we have a right wing now that has been doing this for a few years. Every time we hear talk of the "mainstream media" from someplace like Fox (which IS the mainstream media)that is what you are hearing. A shrill attempt to make people afraid and see others with differing opinions as enemies. There's an old quote, don't know by who, that goes: "You can always pay poor people to kill other poor people." Meaning that if a group of poor are threatening your power base, you can always whip up another group of poor to get rid of them. By playing off sets of people in the lower economic classes, you can effectively keep them busy while you go about your business of taking money or power from all of them.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>A shrill attempt to make people afraid and see others with differing opinions as enemies.<< Yep. There simply is no culture 'war'. But there are people, in the name of ratings and booksales, that would love to incite one.
Originally Posted By mele I find it interesting that the same group of conservatives who are insisting on feeling repressed are the same ones who are always criticizing liberals for being pessimistic AND are often telling those less fortunate than themselves to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and to quit whining about needing help. As usual, no matter where people fall on the political spectrum, it's always easier to point out the "other" person's faults. I think this is one of humans greatest flaws and the political atmosphere in America *thrives* on it.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Well, I see everyone's minds are made up.> I'm willing to have it changed; but I asked my question seriously: "what, exactly has the left been getting its way on lately?" - though I guess I should have been more specific what I meant by "lately." So let's say the past decade - hasn't the right been more ascendent and won a lot more political battles in the past 10 years, if not absolutely everything? I have no doubt that many evangelicals see things like the increasing acceptance of gay people and feel like the country is going to hell in a handbasket. It's their right to feel that way, just as it's my right to think that that makes the country BETTER. But I can't think of too many purely political battles they've lost lately. I know they're upset after feeling like 20 years of Reagan/Bush I/Bush II should have brought them a SCOTUS that would overturn Roe v. Wade and they can even feel betrayed that that didn't happen... but a majority of Americans don't want it to happen. Does that really constitute a cultural "war" or simply, as someone else put it, the constant presence of both traditionalism and progressivism that we've ALWAYS had in this country, and the subsequent need for some kind of synthesis? If you only get some of what you want, is that war, or the compromise inherent in a democracy? I think if you insist it's a war, then you've drawn battle lines, tend to insist on "purity," and set up people who disagree with you as, quite literally, the enemy. That's what you have in war - an enemy. Isn't that the sort of polarization that most people insist isn't what we want? Yet I think it's exactly what you get if you have people insisting we're in any sort of culture "war."
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>So let's say the past decade - hasn't the right been more ascendent and won a lot more political battles in the past 10 years, if not absolutely everything?<< I'm not so sure. Has Roe been overturned? A lot civil union and sem sex marriage laws have been passed lately. Sodomy laws have been overturned. It also seens taht getting a lousy parental notification law passed is a big deal. Anyway, as many of you know, I am not an Evangelical. But I do know a great many, and I talk with them, in part because I wish to understand what is near and dear to them. I seldom get the sense that they are busybodies, but rather they feel extremely threatened by the changes that have occurred in the past 40 years. An anecdote: I know a family whose young child woke up in the middle of the night (after a nightmare). The child tried to find mom and dad's room, but because he was disoriented and scared wound up outside. He went next door and rang the neighbor's doorbell. The neighbor called the cops (figuring the child had been left home alone). The cops showed up and chewed the parents out (who by now were already awake) and threatened to call child protection. So they call me in a panic, figuring that CPS was going to show up any minute and snatch their kids. They were actually considering fleeing the country. I suggested against that. Clearly this situation was handled in a ham fisted way by the authorities, and there never was any real intention of removing the kids. But this is an example of what Evangelicals fear. They really believe that secular society is out to get them.
Originally Posted By mele What the heck does a child found roaming the neighborhood in the middle of the night have to do with politics? CPS checks out thousands of situations and finds them acceptable. What's the harm in making sure? FLEEING THE COUNTRY? Geez, that's not rash at all! Are these "evangelicals" legal citizens in the first place? (My son was one of those kids who always wandered out of the house at around the age of 1-2, so I've been in this situation before. Of course CPS might look into the situation. Just like they check out parents when they bring their children into the ER with injuries. Fleeing the country?!? LOL
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>So let's say the past decade - hasn't the right been more ascendent and won a lot more political battles in the past 10 years, if not absolutely everything?<< <I'm not so sure. Has Roe been overturned? > No, it hasn't. But I think you'd agree with me that the right has had its way politically more often than not lately. That's why I put "if not absolutely everything." If you think you can win absolutely every political battle, that's not realistic. <I seldom get the sense that they are busybodies, but rather they feel extremely threatened by the changes that have occurred in the past 40 years. > I know evangelicals too. Some are related to me. And I know that they feel threatened. But I think in many cases they're being made to feel threatened by people who would use them politically, but don't really give two shakes for them. <They really believe that secular society is out to get them.> Again, I can't deny that some of them fear this. But (to use an extreme example) there are Muslims who really think that the west is out to dominate them and steal their land, and this justifies whatever they need to do. It's not a rational fear, but you can't deny they feel it. As someone else said very well, I don't think there's a REAL war going on, but it's in the interests of some to make people believe there is. The trouble is that if you believe it's a war, you believe there's an enemy, not just people you disagree with. And that enemy is your fellow Americans.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The trouble is that if you believe it's a war, you believe there's an enemy, not just people you disagree with. And that enemy is your fellow Americans.<< Well said! That's what bothers me with this concept of a culture 'war'. It doesn't suggest discussion -- it says that somebody must win, someone must be defeated. Then pretty soon, it gets into who is a 'real American' and all the rest.
