Riots & Brutality - what's the solution?

Originally Posted By ecdc

>>But saying that does absolutely no one any good. It doesn't solve the problem.<<

Of course it does. Recognizing the cause of the problem is the only way to find a solution. That's like saying "What could does it do to know that I'm overweight because I eat too much?"

Knowing that racism and white supremacy is the root cause gives us a way forward. It allows us to make policy changes and to educate. It helps to shut up people who want to blame it all on black pathology and respectability politics. Right now we lay the problem at the feet of black Americans. Let's lay the problem where it belongs, at the feet of our racist culture so we can find solutions.

 

Originally Posted By skinnerbox

<<I would be very curious to see links for a few of these numerous studies.>>

Here's a recent one from the CDC:

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/10/1383179/-The-absent-black-father-myth-debunked-by-CDC">http://www.dailykos.com/story/...d-by-CDC</a>

Definitely worth a read. Excellent charts and tables with surprising data that clearly supports ecdc's claims.

 

Originally Posted By skinnerbox

<< Sure, if a black man wears a suit and tie instead of a t-shirt and sagging jeans, he may be less likely to be pulled over. But only slightly less likely; it does not solve the problem of white supremacy, because of course it can't.>>

Let's go to the videotape...

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/08/1383482/-All-white-upstate-NY-police-force-pull-over-draw-guns-on-four-big-scary-black-officers">http://www.dailykos.com/story/...officers</a>


There is no way that this would have happened to four WHITE parole officers.

NO. EFFN. WAY!

American racism on parade. AGAIN!

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

<<Definitely worth a read. Excellent charts and tables with surprising data that clearly supports ecdc's claims.>>

An interesting read but I don't see it supporting ecdc's claims any more than mine. I said from the start that I didn't doubt that when Black fathers were in the home, they were just as attentive or more so than white fathers.

<<I have no doubt that Black fathers who ARE WITH THEIR FAMILY are more involved with their kids than white fathers are.>>

But the article shows that across the board, regardless of race, fathers not living with their children pay far less attention to their kids than those living with them. And the article goes on to detail that 74.7% of Non-Hispanic White children are living with two parents regardless of marital status while only 36.6% of black children are living with two parents regardless of marital status. That is a huge difference. It was certainly a worthwhile read, but it tends to confirm what I initially said. When living with their kids, Black fathers are great fathers. But there are far more cases where Black fathers are NOT living with their kids than with white fathers.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

"But there are far more cases where Black fathers are NOT living with their kids than with white fathers."

Maybe because a greater percentage of black males are in prison?

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

Yes, I mentioned that in a prior post also.

<<But I'm quite certain there are many more homes in the Black community where only one parent is present. It is a major problem (and yes, I am aware of some of the historical and sociological reasons for that) and one that we as a society need to try to solve. A start would be to stop imprisoning so many young Black men for minor drug offenses.>>

I'm really saying many of the same things you are... even though I am not generally seen as being that liberal at this site. Hell, is SW Missouri they think I'm a freaking Socialist.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

"But the studies are clear: black fathers aren't absent, and they are more involved in their families than white fathers."

I don't know what these studies are, because they sure don't correlate with what I see every day. The vast majority of black fathers in my line of work aren't just absent, they're actively absent.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

It is like what I say so many times on the Branson Bulletin Board that I participate in... "So many of the things that Conservatives know to be absolutely true just plain aren't"

The same appears to apply to at least some West Coast liberals.

 

Originally Posted By Tikiduck

Take these studies and shoot for something between the liberal and conservative, then you might have a pretty good idea.

Doubtless the black American experience is unique in it's challenges, and racism is surely at the core.
Is it possible that racism has genetic roots? Are we hardwired to be suspicious toward different people?
If that were the case, would it be fair to condemn "racists" when they may be genetically predisposed to be that way?

 

Originally Posted By ecdc

Here's the main study:

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr071.pdf">http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/n...r071.pdf</a>

And here's a good summary of what it finds, as well as links to additional studies that back it up:

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/16/3175831/myth-absent-black-father/">http://thinkprogress.org/healt...-father/</a>

The article goes on to address the very thing at play here: that the perception people have of absentee fathers and the "crisis" around black fatherhood is so pervasive that even the facts of these studies struggle to dent them.

 

Originally Posted By ecdc

If Think Progress is just too liberal for you, here's the L.A. Times:

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/20/local/la-me-black-dads-20131221">http://articles.latimes.com/20...20131221</a>

>>The findings echo earlier studies that counter simple stereotypes characterizing black fathers as missing in action. When it comes to fathers who live with their kids, "blacks look a lot like everyone else," said Gretchen Livingston, a senior researcher at the Pew Research Center who has previously studied the topic. And in light of the negative stereotypes about black fathers, "that is a story in itself." ...

Yet the report also revealed that among American fathers living apart from their children, black dads were at least as involved as other dads not living with their kids, or more so, according to most measures. Among fathers living apart from older children, more than half of black fathers said that several times a week or more, they talked to their kids about their day — a higher percentage than among white or Latino dads living separately from older children, the report showed.<<

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

Again, I don't know who they're studying, but it isn't what and who I see.

I'm sure many black dads are involved with their kids, but I'd posit that just as many are not.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

<<When it comes to fathers who live with their kids>>

BINGO!! And what I have been saying from the very start but NO ONE is listening. Black fathers WHO LIVE WITH THEIR KIDS are fine and dandy. But the fact is DAMN FEW DO. That is not racist. That is fact.

Sure, absentee Black fathers do as well or better than any other race not living with their kids. But the fact is they ALL suck compared to those who live with them. What part of this do you not understand?

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

"Is it possible that racism has genetic roots? Are we hardwired to be suspicious toward different people?"

I just watched an interesting show on the Science Channel the other day, Through the Wormhole. The episode was "Are We All Bigots?" Give it a watch.

 

Originally Posted By ecdc

>>What part of this do you not understand?<<

I understand it just fine. I've heard you repeat yourself several times just fine. What you don't understand is that what you are saying is not backed up by the data. You are reaching a conclusion on your own.

This study and the articles that talk about it make it clear that you cannot leap to those conclusions...but you are welcome to keep right on doing it. Also, this "But the fact is DAMN FEW DO." is not true, which just makes your following line really ironic.

 

Originally Posted By ecdc

For example, a very common statistic people love to cite is that 67% of black children live in single-parent homes. But the fine print says:

>>In this definition, single-parent families may include cohabiting couples<<.

Because living arrangements can shift frequently, it's actually difficult to determine how many children do live in two-parent homes that are counted as single-parent because most of the studies go off of marriage rates instead of cohabitation rates.

Even if the percentage is 50%, one would be hard-pressed to say "damn few" black fathers live with their children.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

<<>>In this definition, single-parent families may include cohabiting couples<<.>>

Please. Throw me a bone here. Read the article you linked to. One set of data presented DID use that definition. I DID NOT USE IT. As I pointed out in my post, I used the data in the tables which showed percentages of children living with two parents REGARDLESS OF MARITAL STATUS. Before you decide I am wrong, please at least review my post and re-check the data tables again. I used the table that DID NOT include cohabiting couples as single parent families. All it looked at is whether the children were living with two parents. I'm not even sure they had to be the two biological parents (it did not say)... just parents.

 

Originally Posted By TomSawyer

Living in a single parent family does not cause someone to become a criminal. Having an absentee father does not cause someone to be a criminal. Wearing your pants around your knees and keeping the price sticker on your trucker cap does not make you a criminal.

A fundamental disrespect for others and a lack of empathy is what causes criminal behaviors. There may be a lot of respect within the family or close community, but if that empathy doesn't extend to the wider community and if they are seen as prey rather than peers then you're going to promote criminal behavior.

And, unfortunately, the more we show through our actions that a community is isolated and separate from the mainstream culture, the more cohesive that community becomes when confronting the physical manifestations of that isolation. They don't feel like they are part of the same community that runs the stores that they are looting. They don't believe that the authority of the law over them is valid.

How do you change that? Both sides seem to be emphasizing difference rather than unity at this point, which isn't going to help.

 

Originally Posted By ecdc

>>Throw me a bone here.<<

I hardly know you!



Look, I've acknowledged and agree that black children are more likely to grow up in a true single-parent home with an absentee father. And like you've said, there's a lot of socio-economic reasons for that, such as the drug war that disproportionately targets African Americans.

My point isn't to insist everything is the same and it's all equal. Quite the opposite. It's to point out that when African Americans have the same conditions as white Americans, they behave pretty much the same. When they live at home, they are great parents. When they have jobs, they excel. When you control for poverty, black crime is no more excessive than white crime. And conversely, when we find white Americans dealing with the same challenges that a lot of black Americans deal with, they tend to behave the same. White communities with a lot of poverty also tend to have a lot of crime.

So why, then, is the focus always on black pathology? Why is it on "If only they'd do this or that or try harder or..." whatever? The focus should be on the conditions that create the environment. Every time this stuff is framed, it's in one of two ways: 1) It's race because it's black pathology and if only young black men would stop killing each other, or 2) It's not race, it's poverty and these people need to quit being poor.

It's actually secret option 3) It's race because of our heritage of white supremacy and white Americans are still subtlety racist and only meaningful legislation and action and education will reverse it.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

I hesitate to say this here because I know how it will be taken. And I'm NOT a knee-jerk conservative who wants to abolish ADC and SNAP and WIC and everything else. But the way NOT to accomplish what you are looking for is to make an entire community dependent on government programs. That pretty much guarantees a very different way of life and isolates you from the larger community around you. And that does not pertain just to Black people. I see the exact same thing happening to poor white people here in the Ozarks.

Maybe it is time we admit to the failure of Great Society programs to accomplish what they intended to and come up with another way. Not cut off help, but provide REAL help that will give people a stake in the community around them instead of isolating them from it. Unfortunately I am the first to know it cannot be done in today's political climate. Current Congress would just abolish what is there and not replace it with anything.