Originally Posted By RoadTrip By and large no one seems to care much when people kill others in their own gang/group/whatever. Had the bikers started to loot and set fire to buildings in Waco you would have received the type of media response you are looking for.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder If the media is being nonchalant about the Waco Biker episode then it must be a parallel universe Waco Biker episode that's been blaring on the media I frequent.
Originally Posted By ecdc Sure it's being blared. No question. Front page news. But *how* it's being blared is very different. Looks like I'm not the only obtuse one who noticed that the way we talk about crime by whites is very different than crime by blacks. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2015/5/19/8620357/waco-biker-shootout-race">http://www.vox.com/2015/5/19/8...out-race</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Good article. DDman, you should read it. The coverage of Waco has been extensive, but it's largely been "just the facts," without an attempt to blame "cultural issues" for why it happened. People asking "why aren't people talking about white on white crime?" aren't criticizing the Waco coverage per se; they're pointing out that the media is covering Waco largely the right way, and wondering why the same thing doesn't happen when the violence is from black gangs. From the article: "Those who are using what happened in Waco to start conversations about stereotypes and media biases against black people aren't complaining about the tenor of this weekend's media coverage. They're saying something a little different: that by being pretty reasonable and sticking to the facts, this coverage highlights the absurdity of the language and analysis that have been deployed in other instances, when the accused criminals are black. " (snip) "But the key thing to understand is that the criticism here is not really of the coverage of what happened in Waco. It's of the juxtaposition of what happened here with what happens when the people involved are of a different color. The message is not that the conversation about Waco should be overblown, hypercritical of an entire culture, or full of racial subtext. It's despair over the sense that if the gang members were black, it almost certainly would be."
Originally Posted By Tikiduck This Waco incident is not isolated either. Remember the Laughlin Nevada slaughter a few years ago? We also had a fatal shootout at a casino where I live several years back between the Mongols and the Hells Angels. All in crowded public places, putting innocent lives in peril. It's easy to imagine the uproar if these were black gangs, but as it is, I don't think I have even seen a recent news story bringing these past encounters up. Let alone criticizing this culture of twisted, violent creeps.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Of course on the other side of the coin, no one is trying to excuse the actions of the bikers by pointing to the negative life experiences that led to them becoming drug dealers and outlaw bikers in the first place. It cuts both ways.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Who here has excused the actions of black gang members who indulged in violence? Insisting they be differentiated from black protesters who did not is not the same thing.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Not saying anyone here (although I think one or two may have). But I know for sure I heard many comments by activists and some in the media excusing the violence in Ferguson (and Baltimore) saying that peaceful protest gets ignored... that it is only violence that brings the attention needed to get real change.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 In that case, then, it's not much of an analogue to Waco. No one (including the bikers) are saying the bikers were protesting anything. One can argue all day about whether protests that turn violent help or hurt the cause. I would say usually they hurt, but one can make the case for the "at least we finally got your attention" theory. In the original version of Revolution, Lennon sang "But when you talk about destruction/don't you know that you can count me out" but then added "in" in a softer voice because, as he said, he hadn't made up his mind about that yet. But there was no cause with Waco. nobody protesting years of abuse. Just violent men. So not a very good analogue.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip True. No protest involved, just violence. But I would guess many of the bikers had backgrounds leading them to drug dealing and violence, just as most non-motorcycle gangs do. (Poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of education, etc.)
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I don't think bikers are products of their environment as much as they are products of their antisocial nature. These guys are natural creeps, and there are very few who I would care to share a beer with.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It would be interesting to learn how many of those arrested came from difficult circumstances and how many come from relatively comfortable circumstances and are basically in a biker gang BECAUSE they like to project violence and intimidate people.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Somehow I can't quite imagine having a happy, well-adjusted middle class life and then one day deciding "You know, I think I'm going to be an outlaw biker".
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I can. There are happy well-adjusted middle class people who chuck it all to join a commune in Montana, or who deal drugs, or who bilk people through white collar crime with no conscience, or who join freakin' ISIS. And there's quite a bit of overlap between some of these gangs and white supremacists. Many of whom recruit from working class or what we might call "lower middle class" - I guess it really depends on how you define "middle class." But just as ISIS or other jihadi groups can claim middle class Muslims who suddenly decide that Muslims are being oppressed and the infidel must be fought, there are certainly middle class whites who decide white people are the "real oppressed" (I know, I know, but it happens), and they have to "fight back." Also, there are quite a lot of white-collar types who join motorcycle clubs, actually. Granted, not the same thing as an outlaw biker gang. But for some, the latter has more allure.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I know a lot of middle class, middle aged guys in Motorcycle Clubs, but there are the type that like rides to scenic areas and rides to raise money for charity. Totally different thing from the outlaws. The outlaws seem to attract a fair number of vets... perhaps a statement on the violence they have been taught and seen combined with a lack of opportunity when they return here.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I think the vets are kind of split between the benign riders and the outlaws. The white supremacists, obviously, skew heavily towards the latter. There's also a lot of overlap between the outlaws and drug dealing, especially meth.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 Police officer gunned down. New mother too. But remember cops are the problem <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cop-gunned-down-hours-starting-maternity-leave-n362441">http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us...-n362441</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Why is everything so binary with you sometimes? Why can't cops being gunned down be a problem, AND civilians being gunned down or otherwise killed unjustly also be a problem? And I'll point out (again) that the guy who did this will be arrested, tried, and almost certainly convicted. It's terrible this happened, but at least he will be brought to justice. It is police killing people and NOT brought to justice (sometimes not even tried) that is at the heart of the recent protests.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 I've said in the case of the SC cop he should have been prosecuted. But I also warned this would be open season on the police and it was basically met with a shrug.
