Originally Posted By DAR I was going to take off this week but with this and Gerald Ford dying it's a pretty big week. Let's be honest here this "person" was a monster. Anyone who's wishy washy about this point need only take a look at the pictures of his victims. They weren't allowed a "dignified" death - they were slaughtered out of hand in a nasty, brutal and ugly fashion. Look at the photos of dead mothers, their arms wrapped around the tiny bodies of their dead children. Look at the corpses of an entire village. Look at the bodies of dead Kurdish men, women & children...frozen & starved to death in the mountains trying to avoid Saddam's wrath Bleep him. That being said, let's revise our strategy and find a way to start leaving within the year.
Originally Posted By cmpaley St. Paul was also quite the monster (he was responsible for the murder of countless Christians) and look at what happened to him. This isn't to say that Hussein wasn't an evil man. He most certainly WAS. However, anyone who has the slightest concept of what hell really is all about and what it entails wouldn't wish that upon ANYONE ever. He deserves punishment, but to wish anyone to endless and unrelenting torment forever and ever is wicked beyond description. That is a just punishment only for those who ultimately reject God. That is why Christians always pray that He have mercy on all sinners, especially those in most need of His mercy. As a Catholic, I wish Saddam a very long sojourn in purgatory, however.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Can you honestly say you wouldn't want to kill that guy? Or wish the death penalty on him?>> Of course I would. But that is why we are a country of laws... so that justice is determined impartially by a jury rather than by the one that was wronged. It ain't perfect, but it's the best anyone has come up with.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Of course I would. But that is why we are a country of laws... so that justice is determined impartially by a jury rather than by the one that was wronged.<< Superbly said. One of the biggest arguments for the death penalty is that oft times the families of victims want to see the criminal dead. I'm not about to tell anyone how they should react in such a situation. But we don't administer justice for those wronged. If someone wants to sue someone else, they can bring a civil trial. It's the state that brings charges - not the victim. They represent society and try and put people behind bars so they won't be a threat to society. The biggest fallacy that pro-death penalty supporters perpetuate is that those opposed to the death penalty somehow support the criminals, or don't care about the victims. Nothing could be further from the truth; I could care less about the criminal. Instead, the death penalty isn't about them - it's about the rest of us. We're satisfying humankind's basest urges with the death penalty. We're lowering ourselves and hurting ourselves. The criminals who are eligible for the death penalty aren't worth damaging our collective decency.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< As a Catholic, I wish Saddam a very long sojourn in purgatory, however. >>> So, what is the Catholic belief on religious things in general with regards to non-Catholics? For example, a Jewish person that strictly followed a kosher diet would not think bad of me for eating pork, as those dietary laws were commands from God to the Jews, and since I'm not Jewish, they don't apply to me. Do Catholics believe that their doctrines apply to all people, such that Saddam would suffer in purgatory even though he's not Catholic?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Do Catholics believe that their doctrines apply to all people, such that Saddam would suffer in purgatory even though he's not Catholic?>> Is the law of gravity any less valid in China just because Sir Isaac Newton was an Englishman?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Is the law of gravity any less valid in China just because Sir Isaac Newton was an Englishman? >>> I'm not sure if you're being cheeky with us or not RoadTrip. But either way your post is hilarious!
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><<< As a Catholic, I wish Saddam a very long sojourn in purgatory, however. >>> So, what is the Catholic belief on religious things in general with regards to non-Catholics? For example, a Jewish person that strictly followed a kosher diet would not think bad of me for eating pork, as those dietary laws were commands from God to the Jews, and since I'm not Jewish, they don't apply to me. Do Catholics believe that their doctrines apply to all people, such that Saddam would suffer in purgatory even though he's not Catholic?<< Yes. The fact that someone isn't Catholic doesn't negate the fullness of truth that the Catholic Church teaches. Heck, every informed Christian (not just Catholic) knows that the Jewish religion is the predecessor of Christianity (Jesus, was, after all Jewish and a descendent of King David of Israel). At any rate, the Catholic Church teaches Four Last Things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell. If God granted Saddam the grace of repentance and Saddam responded in faith and repentance before he swung, then he will eventually be received into heaven. That's the mercy of God and every single one of us here on this earth have recourse to that mercy. One of our prayers is, "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy." Of course, since Catholics believe in temporal punishment for sin, we say that there is where souls receive the temporal punishment due for sin while the eternal punishment was taken by Christ Himself. That place is called purgatory. Considering Saddam's sins, he'd have a lot to endure. If Saddam didn't repent, then he's in hell and that's not a matter of Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. Those who commit evil acts and ultimately reject God (final impenitence) will find themselves in hell forever. Sad but true.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< If Saddam didn't repent, then he's in hell and that's not a matter of Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. Those who commit evil acts and ultimately reject God (final impenitence) will find themselves in hell forever. Sad but true. >>> It most be nice to be Catholic and, unlike all of the other religions practiced by God's children, to be in possession of the one fully truthful version of reality. And thank you for answering my question.
Originally Posted By Mr X I love that theory. On the one hand, you have a person who might have lead an extremely pious life and tryed REALLY REALLY hard to be a good person, pray, and all that jazz, only to commit a mortal sin near the end of life and, perhaps from frustration or whatever, not be sorry for it. That person is DEFINITELY in hell, according to Catholic doctrine. On the other hand, you have a person who was horrible throughout their life, commited sins left and right, took great joy in harming others and whatnot, but then in the last couple of days of life started to feel REALLY REALLY bad about all the awful things done throughout an entire life of evil...in sorrow, Jesus is asked for forgiveness just prior to death. That person is DEFINITELY in heaven, according to Catholic doctrine. lol. I'm glad I quit.
Originally Posted By Mr X There was this great series of books that began with "On a Pale Horse", which starred the grim reaper. I love that series. In it, the reaper "weighs" the souls, and those that are 50.1% good or better go to heaven, while those that are 49.9% go to hell. The people with completely balanced good/evil souls (50% on the nose) have desk jobs in purgatory. And athiest souls simply disappear (personal choice). I like that theory of fairness and the afterlife a HECK of a lot better that the Catholic way.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I like that theory of fairness and the afterlife a HECK of a lot better that the Catholic way. >>> Well it would appear that you're definately going to hell then, since you're turning your back on God, which apparently is the one thing that will send you there.
Originally Posted By Mr X I'm banking on a mistrial, er...deathbed confession. I don't need to serve god for my WHOLE life, noone does. Just the last few minutes is all it takes (so hopefully I'll have some warning...that's a bit of a gamble there).
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I don't need to serve god for my WHOLE life, noone does. Just the last few minutes is all it takes (so hopefully I'll have some warning...that's a bit of a gamble there). >>> At first what you said above troubled me. After all, how fair would it be that Saddam got a chance to repent at the last minute before he reached the end of his rope (so to speak), whereas you might not have that opportunity if you die instantly in a car crash? But then the answer struck me, and it's so obvious that I don't know why I didn't see it from the beginning: you wouldn't die instantly in a car crash unless that's what God willed for you, and I'm sure that you'd have deserved it if that happened during a time when you had not already repented.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo My problem with the catholic church (our family also turned away) is that an unbaptised baby will not go to heaven, but Saddam Hussein and Hitler will if they repent. There is something wrong somewhere. And what of the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, budhists etc? What happens to them? I do believe in god (I think) and I'd love for there to be a heaven (though I'm a bit cynical). But does it not make sense for a good person to go to heaven? I like the On a Pale Horse version of the afterlife, seems fair.
Originally Posted By SuperDry This whole notion of purgatory and temporal punishment for sins before you can enter heaven is a great device that the Catholic church has come up with, as it neatly solves something that's been bothering me about Protestant Christianity: how do you reconcile the notion of God/Christ offering absolute forgiveness at any time just for the asking with some notion of needing to live a responsible and good life? If for example the criminals that died on adjacent crosses with Christ during the cruxifiction were granted instant forgiveness and everlasting life just before death even though they had done bad things their whole lives, what's to stop anyone from doing that? That would seem to remove the threat of Hell as a reason for behaving properly, which is a common threat used in many Protestant churches. But purgatory neatly solves that problem, and provides a great way for the church to maintain control even if someone thinks a bit too much about the cruxifiction and gets any fancy ideas: You still get instant forgiveness and everlasting life in heaven, but you'll still pay after you die for all the bad things you did before you get there. I wonder why God didn't forsee this problem and just go ahead and put purgatory in the Bible where it would seem to belong?
