Originally Posted By Mr X **After all, how fair would it be that Saddam got a chance to repent at the last minute before he reached the end of his rope (so to speak)** ugh.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***My problem with the catholic church (our family also turned away) is that an unbaptised baby will not go to heaven, but Saddam Hussein and Hitler will if they repent. There is something wrong somewhere. And what of the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, budhists etc? What happens to them?*** Not to mention all those poor saps that ate meat on Friday before they changed the rule and are now stuck in hell on a technicality!
Originally Posted By jasmine7 <<There was this great series of books that began with "On a Pale Horse", which starred the grim reaper.<< Oh, Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series. I really love those books, and I think they're the best he's written, especially "On a Pale Horse."
Originally Posted By Mr X Funny thing is, I love that series but don't care for anything else by Piers Anthony. I've tried reading a lot of his other stuff over the years, but for some reason I don't like any of it. Same for Orson Scott Card. Love the Ender/Shadow series, don't like anything else by that author. Weird.
Originally Posted By Labuda Wow, I gotta say, based on the first page of this thread (all I've read so far), my opinion doesn't seem 100% whacked out the way I thought it might be. Like some others here, I am opposed to the death penalty, even for people like Saddam.
Originally Posted By Mr X It appears as though you are in agreement with every nation that has offered an opinion so far, except for Iraq, the United States, and Japan... <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/29/hussein.world.reaction/index.html" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WO RLD/meast/12/29/hussein.world.reaction/index.html</a>
Originally Posted By threeundertwo "First it was weapons of mass destruction. Then when there were none, it was that we had to find Saddam. We did that, but then it was that we had to put him on trial," said Spc. Thomas Sheck, 25, who is on his second tour in Iraq. "So now, what will be the next story they tell us to keep us over here?"
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_death_penalty_worldwide" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U se_of_death_penalty_worldwide</a> Interesting map, ain't it? I'd say that we are definitely in the company countries which, for the most part, we are supposedly ideologically opposed to... Whereas Europe, and nations most influenced by Europe, are the most enlightened. In fact, I daresay that most of the countries in the "red zone" could be considered, well, barbaric.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Oh, Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series. I really love those books, and I think they're the best he's written, especially "On a Pale Horse." >>>> I had not thought about this in years. Great book.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>On the one hand, you have a person who might have lead an extremely pious life and tryed REALLY REALLY hard to be a good person, pray, and all that jazz, only to commit a mortal sin near the end of life and, perhaps from frustration or whatever, not be sorry for it. That person is DEFINITELY in hell, according to Catholic doctrine.<< And WHY is that person in hell? Mortal sin is not something you don by accident. In order for a sin to be mortal, three things must be present: 1. Grave moral matter 2. Knowledge of the matter 3. ACT OF THE WILL By choosing to commit a mortal son, that person is choosing to turn their back on God. On the other hand: >>On the other hand, you have a person who was horrible throughout their life, commited sins left and right, took great joy in harming others and whatnot, but then in the last couple of days of life started to feel REALLY REALLY bad about all the awful things done throughout an entire life of evil...in sorrow, Jesus is asked for forgiveness just prior to death. That person is DEFINITELY in heaven, according to Catholic doctrine.<< And WHY is this? Because that person turned from their evil ways toward God. It's really all a matter of whether one is directed toward God or away from Him at the time of death. We choose our own eternal destiny.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>My problem with the catholic church (our family also turned away) is that an unbaptised baby will not go to heaven, but Saddam Hussein and Hitler will if they repent. There is something wrong somewhere.<< Actually, we don't KNOW what happens to unbaptized babies. We are limited to the Sacraments, God is NOT. From the Catechism: 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
Originally Posted By Mr X So again, why does what happens around our time of death outweigh a lifetime of effort? It doesn't. Makes no sense. And no god could be so unbalanced, unfair, and unjust. Besides, don't the NUMBER of sins, good deeds, and all that stuff mean ANYTHING? According to you, they don't. Sounds great to me...I'll be doing that deathbed contrition myself. Besides, only Mormons and Saddam Hussein go to heaven anyway.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "Actually, we don't KNOW what happens to unbaptized babies. We are limited to the Sacraments, God is NOT." I'd like to hope my older brother is in heaven. My Mom was a young bride, married to her high school sweetheart who shipped out to Nam. My brother John was born while Gary was out there. My mom wanted to wait to wait for Gary to come home to baptise him. Sadly, John died from a hole in his heart at age 3 months, unbaptised. The preast, rather than support my mom gave her a dressing down and said that John would never go to heaven because he had not been baptised. And Gary never returned from Vietnam either. It's not surprising my mom turned away from the church (and yet I was baptised).
Originally Posted By Mr X "allow us to HOPE that there is a way of salvation for children"?? That's all they can say? They're not SURE that god will be loving and merciful to innocent babies? How can that be? Besides, they seem to be certain about so many other "answers", why aren't they certain about that one? "well, we can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that person X is definitely going to heaven, and person y is surely desined for hell...but all these little babies? we sure HOPE that God is nice to them." Uh huh.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>This whole notion of purgatory and temporal punishment for sins before you can enter heaven is a great device that the Catholic church has come up with, as it neatly solves something that's been bothering me about Protestant Christianity: how do you reconcile the notion of God/Christ offering absolute forgiveness at any time just for the asking with some notion of needing to live a responsible and good life?<< Forgiveness is, of course predicated on contrition and a firm purpose of amendment. Just saying, "Lord, forvie me!" without intending to live right afterward doesn't result in forgiveness. In fact, it's a mockery of God's mercy and digs the whole deeper. >>If for example the criminals that died on adjacent crosses with Christ during the cruxifiction were granted instant forgiveness and everlasting life just before death even though they had done bad things their whole lives, what's to stop anyone from doing that?<< First, we only know of one who was saved. Tradition tells us his name is St. Dismas. Second, Jesus warns us to not live like this. "No one knows the day or the hour." Second, that's called presumption of God's mercy and it's a dangerous thing to do. >>That would seem to remove the threat of Hell as a reason for behaving properly, which is a common threat used in many Protestant churches.<< In some, but not all. Some believe in "once-saved, always-saved." >>But purgatory neatly solves that problem, and provides a great way for the church to maintain control even if someone thinks a bit too much about the cruxifiction and gets any fancy ideas: You still get instant forgiveness and everlasting life in heaven, but you'll still pay after you die for all the bad things you did before you get there.<< First, here's how it works. Baptism removes all sin and the consequences thereof. A person who dies right after baptism will go straight to heaven. A person who remains in the state of grace all their life and commits no sins whatsoever can attain heaven quickly. On the other hand, since most of us DON'T do that, then there is Sacramental Confession. Forgiveness for mortal sins can only be obtained through this sacrament by confessing each mortal sin by type and number. The eternal penalty of that mortal sin (hell) is remitted in the sacrament but the temporal penalty remains. After all, you have done major damage in committing that sin and are responsible to repair the damage. That's damage to your soul as well as to others. That can be done here through pious acts or obtaining indulgences. If there is any remaining penalty, that is what purgatory is for. Let's put it this way, in order to go to heaven, one must be perfect. Purgatory is where we are perfected. >>I wonder why God didn't forsee this problem and just go ahead and put purgatory in the Bible where it would seem to belong?<< He did. The problem is that at least one of the books that refers to Purgatory was removed by the Protestants (2 Maccabees). St. Paul talks about how many will suffer loss but will be saved but as through fire. It's not as developed a doctrine as we have today, but it IS there.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>The preast, rather than support my mom gave her a dressing down and said that John would never go to heaven because he had not been baptised.<<< See, now this is the kind of stuff I hate. Dave, if there IS a god, your brother is DEFINITELY in heaven. No doubt whatsoever. POSITIVELY, ABSOLUTELY. If not, then god is NOT the all-powerful all-merciful catch all that these religious people are trying to tout. And you know that too. p.s. the priest, on the other hand, I'm not so sure about.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ah, but remember a lot of protestantism was brought in by Henry the 8th to justify his behaviour towards marriage. It's no wonder the referrences to purgatory were removed. It makes you wonder what else was removed (like the rumoured Gospell according to Judas)?
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>Forgiveness for mortal sins can only be obtained through this sacrament by confessing each mortal sin by type and number. The eternal penalty of that mortal sin (hell) is remitted in the sacrament but the temporal penalty remains.<<< What if you commit a mortal sin and then forget about it? Or, even better, get hit on the head and suffer memory loss before going to the confessional? So complicated. Once saved, always saved sounds much less confusing!
