Originally Posted By cmpaley >>So again, why does what happens around our time of death outweigh a lifetime of effort? It doesn't. Makes no sense. And no god could be so unbalanced, unfair, and unjust. Besides, don't the NUMBER of sins, good deeds, and all that stuff mean ANYTHING? According to you, they don't. Sounds great to me...I'll be doing that deathbed contrition myself. Besides, only Mormons and Saddam Hussein go to heaven anyway.<< Let me put it this way because you are really talking about exceptions to the general rule here. A person who has lived their whole life in wickedness and sin is not very likely to repent at the last moment. Likewise, your pious person is not likely to commit a mortal sin just before they die (and if they did, chances are, they fell away in their heart long before acting out!). This notion of balance and scales, however, doesn't really matter. ONE sin is enough to offend an infinite and holy God to the extent that the person is justly punished in hell. No number of good works is enough to make up for that. God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell and He makes all kinds of opportunities available for people to repent. Also, there's another important thing to remember: CCC 848: "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Also, is it a mortal sin if you do not know it is a sin? In the case of mental illness, disabilities or ignorance, what would happen? Or a child who unknowingly commits sin? And as we are all supposedly born of original sin, does that mean no heaven without repentance? And why repent if one of the key reasons for existance is procreation?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >> The preast, rather than support my mom gave her a dressing down and said that John would never go to heaven because he had not been baptised. << That's a lousy, lousy priest and I hope he receives his just reward for saying such a thing! It's priests who do things like that and hurt people who will suffer the worst in the next life, whether in hell or purgatory.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "This notion of balance and scales, however, doesn't really matter. ONE sin is enough to offend an infinite and holy God to the extent that the person is justly punished in hell. No number of good works is enough to make up for that. God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell and He makes all kinds of opportunities available for people to repent." What about crusaders and missionaries then. Were not the attrocities committed in god's name in Turkey, Spain, the Holy Lands and even the America's sinful? And yet these are people often considered for sainthood. Where does this doctrine fit in this context?
Originally Posted By Mr X One more thing on that...am I incorrect or don't priests still perform the sacrament, even over a deceased person? I thought I read that somewhere (like in the case of a stillbirth, for example)... If that IS possible, then it's the PRIEST who commited the grave sin!
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>>Forgiveness for mortal sins can only be obtained through this sacrament by confessing each mortal sin by type and number. The eternal penalty of that mortal sin (hell) is remitted in the sacrament but the temporal penalty remains.<<< What if you commit a mortal sin and then forget about it?<< That happens quite a bit where people to a long time without confession. In my case, I was baptized about 22 years ago and was received into the Church this past Easter. My first Confession was heard that Saturday and I had to go over 21 or so years of life. I confessed what I could and knew that what I had forgotten was forgiven. Of course, anything I remember, I am supposed to confess at my next confession but it's still forgiven. It's amazing how one's "account seems to be cleared" upon leaving the confessional! >>Or, even better, get hit on the head and suffer memory loss before going to the confessional?<< Hard case. My rommate's brother is in a similar situation. If he receives the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, the mortal sins are remitted but the obligation to confess when memory return is there. >>So complicated. Once saved, always saved sounds much less confusing!<< But OSAS is not a true doctrine and can't be backed up from the Bible (thought some TRY!).
Originally Posted By jdub >> Were not the attrocities committed in god's name in Turkey, Spain, the Holy Lands and even the America's sinful? And yet these are people often considered for sainthood. Where does this doctrine fit in this context?<< If there IS such a thing as divine retribution, or even life after death, I prefer to think that these barbarians WILL pay. But that's all any of this is, anyhow: wishful thinking.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I would like to hope that if there is a heaven, John would be there. CMPALEY - please do not mind my questioning. I am in many ways envious (a sin) of your faith. I have explored catholicism, protestantism, went to Hebrew school for 2 years studying Judaism, I've read the Koran, explored Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Paganism, and Bahaism. The closest faith I have is the Bahai faith. Belief in a god, but with some agnosticism, and a deeprespect for the teachings of all the world's religions. A believe that if there is an afterlife, or reincarnation, then being excellent to each other is the path to progress. And if there is not, at least each individual can make this earth a better place in their own way. But I cannot quit questioning.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Also, is it a mortal sin if you do not know it is a sin? In the case of mental illness, disabilities or ignorance, what would happen? Or a child who unknowingly commits sin?<< Knowledge and consent are necessary for a sin to be mortal. >>And as we are all supposedly born of original sin, does that mean no heaven without repentance? And why repent if one of the key reasons for existance is procreation?<< Actually original sin is not a matter of guilt, it's a matter of the soul being dead to God. Baptism is the means by which the soul is enlivened and brought into relationship to God. And before you ask, a person who desires baptism and dies before baptism is saved through what is called the "baptism of desire."
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>One more thing on that...am I incorrect or don't priests still perform the sacrament, even over a deceased person?<< Which one? There are seven of them. As far as I know, no sacraments are given to dead persons. We pray for the dead and offer masses for them.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>What about crusaders and missionaries then. Were not the attrocities committed in god's name in Turkey, Spain, the Holy Lands and even the America's sinful? And yet these are people often considered for sainthood. Where does this doctrine fit in this context?<< Genuine atrocities are sinful and those people have been/are being/will be called to account for that. Of course, in the context of the time, some of those things were not sinful. Context is everything. Some crusaders and missionaries were bad folk and some weren't.
Originally Posted By Mr X Like I said, Dave, why would you even have to "hope". Seriously. I'm not kidding here, IF there is a god he's no more going to abandon an infant than a normal healthy Mother would. Or else, god is evil. Which he, if he exists, certainly is not. So, even if the Catholic church can't seem to figure it out, I have...and they are idiots for not seeing the obvious (well, I find them to be pretty dumb anyway). Your brother MUST BE in heaven, if there is such a place. There is no other way.
Originally Posted By jonvn Of course God is evil. He permits evil to exist. He abets it. That makes him evil.
Originally Posted By Mr X Or, you COULD say that God and the Devil are one and the same... Or at least, compliment each other (only by Satan being so horribly "bad" can God possibly be so good, even with all the suffering in the world). So conflicted though. I think that's why they moved them to seperate floors in the dorm.
Originally Posted By jonvn If you know a crime is going to be committed, and you do nothing to stop that crime, you are an accessory to that crime. That is, you took part in that crime. You aided in its execution. So if God is there, knowing people will do evil acts, and does nothing to stop them, then he's just as much at fault as anyone.
Originally Posted By Mr X Dave, are you saying that if there were world peace, no pollution, and no violent crime...you wouldn't appreciate it? Would you need to look into some sort of violent past to know that it was better this way? I mean, I don't have to have evil in my life to appreciate a nice walk through a forest, or spending time with people I love.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo While I would hope so,how can there be pleasure without pain, satisfaction without hunger, dark without light? The ancients of asia talked of yin and yang. You cannot have one without the other.
Originally Posted By jonvn "how can there be pleasure without pain" I have experienced pleasure many times, and did not need pain in order to enjoy it. That's another type of website altogether. What you are stating is a often made but fairly silly argument. I don't need to be hungry to feel satisfied. I don't need pain to feel pleasure, I don't need evil. None of these things are needed. You can simply be satisfied, feel pleasure, or be good. You don't need the negative.
