Saddam Hussein Execution

Originally Posted By jonvn

Ugh. Typos.

Oh well.

 

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>>"they don't live the faith they profess with their lips."

What difference does it make? They're sins are forgiven. It's what makes your religion so useless. You can do whatever you choose, and it means absolutely nothing in the end. Live a life in whatever venal and horrific manner you want, and it's all ok.<<

Nonsense. They're only forgiven if they are sorry for them and intend to not do them again. If they aren't sorry or have no intention of stopping their sinful livs, then no absolution in the world will "stick." In fact, it makes their fate worse.

 

Originally Posted By melekalikimaka

Hm, I never thought about character developement while reading the Bible.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

"Nonsense. They're only forgiven if they are sorry for them and intend to not do them again. If they aren't sorry or have no intention of stopping their sinful livs, then no absolution in the world will "stick." In fact, it makes their fate worse."

You're not thinking this through.

An old Mafia hitman lives to the ripe old age of 90 years old. He's told he has a few weeks to live because of terminal cancer. He's catholic. He's killed dozens of people in his life, done all manner of horrible things. He's now afraid of his own death, so he finds a priest and confesses. He's truly sorry, now that he's about to die himself. He's not going to do it anymore. The guy's home free then, eh?

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

Right.

It is not nonsense. It is simply a good excuse to do whatever you want, as long as you feel sorry afterwards. And if you do it again? Oh, then you just feel sorry again.

It's a meaningless exercise.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

Well, jonvn, we've obviously had our difference, but not here. This is one of many things I don't get about catholicism.

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

I only read about the first 60 posts, so I'm not totally up on this whole discussion. But I want to say I am glad there are other people out there that feel the same way I do about this, and all execution. I am totally against the death penalty. In fact, I think it's murder.
I was sad when I heard, as I am with every execution. Not because I don't think Sadaam Hussein wasn't a horrible person, but I am with whoever said Hell is a horrible place and I wouldn't wish it on the worst person on earth.

Now, I am not Catholic, so I don't have all the same beliefs as cmpaley, but I do believe that God has ordained from the beginning of time who will be saved. And if that means on your deathbed, then that is God's will. Also, in the Bible it says we are NOT saved by works, so being a good person isn't going to do it, the same as being a bad person most of your life means you can not be saved at the end.

Okay, go ahead, rip me apart if my beliefs don't agree with yours! That's okay with me. I'm just stating what I believe to be true. Also that I didn't rejoice in Sadaam's exectuion.

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

I also don't think that being sorry for something is going to mean you are saved. Ephesians 1: 3 - 5 says:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."
Verse 7 says "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the richness of His grace."

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

If it's ordained from the beginning who will be saved, then what is the point in making an effort?

 

Originally Posted By melekalikimaka

I have to admit, I did watch the video of his hanging, not just the video of the noose being placed around his neck.

It was hard to see, harder than I thought it would be. It wasn't really graphic (gory) but still, with the shouting and everything...it seemed like the people doing it were having fun and that made them just as sick in my eyes.

Which is why the death penatly bugs me. I am not fiercely against it but I do think that a part of us dies when we take the lives of people...even people who deserve it.

If someone broke into my house to kill me and I killed them in self-defense...I would still be devastated by that. I grew up in a violent home and it changes a person. Sometimes you don't know how it will change you until it's too late.

Maybe I'm just too sensitive.

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

"If it's ordained from the beginning who will be saved, then what is the point in making an effort?"

I'm not sure what you mean by making an effort. Maybe it is ordained because God, who is allknowing, knew who would seek Him, or knew who's salvation would be prayed for by people who loved them, or knew who would be touched by the words of someone who was telling them about Him.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

Maybe. Worse things than that happen to people every day. Many times per day.

There are a lot worse ways to die.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

"Maybe it is ordained because God, who is allknowing, knew who would seek H"

And what you're also saying is that god is creating people knowing full well they are going to burn in hell.

Nice.

Always nice.

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

Mele -- I agree with you. Killing people, and enjoying it, shows a person without much of a soul. It would take it out of you. I can't imagine enjoying someones death. It is the sign of a sickness, or of a total desensitizing of violence due to TV and movie violence. I'll be the hanging didn't even seem real, just like something out of a movie.

 

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>> "Nonsense. They're only forgiven if they are sorry for them and intend to not do them again. If they aren't sorry or have no intention of stopping their sinful livs, then no absolution in the world will "stick." In fact, it makes their fate worse."

You're not thinking this through.

An old Mafia hitman lives to the ripe old age of 90 years old. He's told he has a few weeks to live because of terminal cancer. He's catholic. He's killed dozens of people in his life, done all manner of horrible things. He's now afraid of his own death, so he finds a priest and confesses. He's truly sorry, now that he's about to die himself. He's not going to do it anymore. The guy's home free then, eh?<<

If he's truly sorry and wouldn't do it again, then it would be forgiven. Fear of hell (what we call imperfect contrition) is enough for sins to be forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance/Confession/Reconciliation. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have to deal with the temporal punishment due those sins (what we call purgatory), just that he won't go to hell for them.

Now I know that some people think that hell is the only just punishment for people like this, but consider what hell truly is; unending, merciless, relentless, conscious, continuous torment with no hope of relief or ever getting out. If a person turns to God, even at the last moment of life, He grants His mercy and forgives their sins. Considering everyone alive today, except babies without any personal sins, deserve hell because of their sins, I don't think anyone has the right to say that it's not fair that God would forgive even the worst sinner.

By the way, Catholics believe in something protestants don't...purgatory. A protestant (historic protestant, evangelical or fundamentalist) would say that if a person "accepts Christ" on their deathbed, they are whisked to heaven. Catholics don't say that. A person like our hypothetical 90 year old mob boss would have to pay the temporal dues of his sins by a stay in purgatory. In other words, the protestants let him get away with it all, the Catholics don't.

Big, important different.

Of course, while it is possible for this to happen (the only unforgivable sin is final impenitence), does anyone think it's really likely? After all, the general direction of our lives is set by all the little decisions we make. A person who is that far along is unlikely to feel repentant or sorry for their sins. Only by the grace of God does anyone come to Him and I don't believe He would turn His back on anyone, but it's just not likely that this hypothetical man is going to choose to humble himself and repent of and confess his sins.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

What if he was truly sorry, was sincere that he would not do it again, and did it again anyway?

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

Seeing how God is allknowing, yes, He would have had to know that eventually people would sin. See the thing is, I'm not a preacher, I'm not the most well studied theologian, I am not the best on having this sort of discussion. I can only tell you what it says in the Bible.

Also, being human, I don't understand all the ways of God. But if I am wrong, then I am guilty of bearing false witness, and I am truely sorry.

 

Originally Posted By melekalikimaka

Well, it was a lot less graphic than the average movie, you know? It happened really quickly which made me jump. He kind of falls out of view for a bit and then you see his face at a gross angle, his eyes open. Pretty tame compared to prime time tv, even.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

the thing is that there is simply not shred one of logic to your beliefs.

You attempts to explain it make it no more reasonable, in fact it does the opposite.

 

Originally Posted By melekalikimaka

Well, if you believe God is going to judge you when you die and decided your fate then you believe He knows you better than you know yourself. If you are truly sorry for your actions, and not just because you're afraid of hell, he'll know it.

It all fits to the believers and that is all that matters. Faith and logic don't have to gel when an all-knowing entity is involved.