Saddam Hussein Execution

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>>If it's ordained from the beginning who will be saved, then what is the point in making an effort?<<

This is the first reasonable question you've made on the topic so far.

Answer: the doctrine of unconditional election (which is what is being espoused here) was condemned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent because it makes God out to be arbitrary and the author of evil. It's one of the things that has separated Catholics and Protestants for centuries.

Our the initial grace of justification (being made right with God) is not conditioned upon our works but our receiving it by faith BUT we are responsible for what we do with that grace. If we turn our backs on that grace and sin and fail to return to God in repentance (especially through Sacramental Confession), then we condemn ourselves.

 

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>>What if he was truly sorry, was sincere that he would not do it again, and did it again anyway?<<

Then it's back to square one and either needs to repent and confess or get lots and lots of ice ready 'cause he's in for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong summer!

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

<Maybe I'm just too sensitive.>

No, Mele, I'd say that's a good sensitivity. I agree with you; I think the death penalty coarsens us as a people and lowers those who practice it, quite apart from the question of whether the guilty party deserves it.

Of course, nearly all advanced countries have abandoned the practice, save the US. In the middle east, on the other hand, it's common.

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

cmpaley, I don't know a lot about Catholocism, but how do the Catholics explain those verse in Ephesians, and the others like it in the Bible?

BTW, I didn't say negative things about your beliefs, the ones I don't agree with, so how come you felt it necessary to say them about mine. I've had Catholic friends tell me that Protestant churches teach anti-Catholicism, which I haven't heard in my church, but apparently the Catholic church is teaching anti-Protestantism.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

"if you believe God is going to judge you when you die and decided your fate then you believe He knows you better than you know yourself. If you are truly sorry for your actions, and not just because you're afraid of hell, he'll know it."

What is the point of there being a hell if not to scare you into behaving properly?

"Faith and logic don't have to gel when an all-knowing entity is involved."

Good, because they don't. And if something does not make sense, it is not true. That's the world we live in. And if there is a god, it is the world he created. Why would he create a world where logic and reason exist, except for just him? That also does not make any sense.

It's irrational, not sane, and meaningless.

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

"And if something does not make sense, it is not true"

I love that line in the Santa Claus that says, "Sometimes seeing isn't believing, sometimes believing is seeing."

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

"This is the first reasonable question you've made on the topic so far."

All my questions have been simple and reasonable.

"Then it's back to square one and either needs to repent"

So, again, all it goes back to is saying "I'm sorry," and you get a blank check to do whatever venal act you care to imagine.

"I think the death penalty coarsens us as a people and lowers those who practice it"

So does war, unless you have to do it in order to avoid being killed yourself. Then it's only a horrific tragedy that you have had to engage in.

But we do engage in death penalty all the time. To people who have done nothing wrong. We send people into military activity knowing they may be killed. Or we attack other people and nations, and kill them. Have they actually done anyone any harm?

Is that arong for the government to kill them? Or is wrong only for the government to kill people who are murderers in our prison?

You shouldn't kill anyone. Some people even say killing in self defense is wrong.

I don't know.

 

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>>Well, if you believe God is going to judge you when you die and decided your fate then you believe He knows you better than you know yourself. If you are truly sorry for your actions, and not just because you're afraid of hell, he'll know it.<<

True and it really only matters if you don't have access to or refuse to avail yourself of the ordained means of the forgiveness of serious sin: sacramental confession. Outside of sacramental confession, what is called "perfect contrition," that is contrition motivated out of a love of God and a sorrow for having offended Him is sufficient to forgive mortal sin. Confession is still necessary at the earliest opportunity.

Imperfect contrition is being sorry for sins for any other reason, including the fear of hell and is sufficient to receive the grace of forgiveness and the renewal of justification in sacramental confession.

It's all about what God has ordained as the means of grace. There are ALWAYS extraordinary circumstances and, for those, we must always fall back to the principles of religion to answer them. One of the principles of the Christian religion is that God is merciful to those who repent and the Just Judge to those who are obstinate in their sin.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

"Sometimes seeing isn't believing, sometimes believing is seeing."

Here's a clue: There's no Santa, either.

And you've not seen anything that hasn't happened to other religions with diametrically opposed viewpoints to yours, regardless of what yours are.

Mormons claim a spiritual feeling that comes over them. So do Born Again Christians who say Mormons are the devil's playthings.

When you can come up with some real evidence, at least something better than what we get for ghost and UFO sightings, then I'll start to believe you.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

"A person like our hypothetical 90 year old mob boss would have to pay the temporal dues of his sins by a stay in purgatory. In other words, the protestants let him get away with it all, the Catholics don't."

So the hitman gets the after-life equivalent of a time out?

 

Originally Posted By DyGDisney

Oh man, johvn, you just ruined Santa Claus for me. Ya know, I still believed in him!!!

I agree with you about the war. We are there unnecessarily, killing innocent people, and we don't have the right to be there. Yes, it is murder, directed by one of the worst presidents in history.

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

<<I think the death penalty coarsens us as a people and lowers those who practice it>>

<So does war, unless you have to do it in order to avoid being killed yourself. Then it's only a horrific tragedy that you have had to engage in.

But we do engage in death penalty all the time. To people who have done nothing wrong. We send people into military activity knowing they may be killed. Or we attack other people and nations, and kill them. Have they actually done anyone any harm? >

Which is why war should be a true last resort, which Iraq clearly wasn't. Justified wars are few and far between IMO (WWII, considering the Nazis really did want to take over the world, and came remarkably close to taking over Europe at least).

Of course, war and imprisonment are something of an apple and an orange; if one has a prisoner, including a guilty one, locked up and unable to perpetuate any further evil on society, that should be enough, IMO. Whereas Hitler would only have been stopped through a war.

 

Originally Posted By DouglasDubh

<You speak in half-truths.>

As opposed to gadzuux? What's he speaking in? One-quarter truths? One-eighth truths?

In December 1983, there had been complaints of gas attacks by both sides of the Iraq-Iran War. Yes, Secretary Rumsfeld met with Saddam. That doesn't mean in any way that the Reagan Administration condoned or sanctioned gas attacks, any more than Secretary Albright's having dinner with the tyrant of North Korea meant President Clinton thought he was a good guy.

 

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>>cmpaley, I don't know a lot about Catholocism, but how do the Catholics explain those verse in Ephesians, and the others like it in the Bible?<<

Actually there are two schools of thought on this among Catholics. One is closer to your view (except that God does not predestine anyone to Hell) and one is closer to mine (God knows in advance but it is ultimately our choice to respond or reject His mercy). They are both acceptable.

>>BTW, I didn't say negative things about your beliefs, the ones I don't agree with, so how come you felt it necessary to say them about mine. I've had Catholic friends tell me that Protestant churches teach anti-Catholicism, which I haven't heard in my church, but apparently the Catholic church is teaching anti-Protestantism.<<

Sorry, I was speaking to something I understand to be specifically condemned by an authoritative Church Council (Sixth Council, Canon 17. If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.).

Now, believe me, I know that we agree on about 95% of things. Assuming you're a "standard issue" Christian in the US, you're likely to be trinitarian, believe in the diety of Christ and take Sacred Scripture pretty seriously. That being said, assuming you've been baptized, you'd by my brother or sister in Christ.

As a Catholic Christian, however, I am also obligated to not water down the catholicity of my religion but to be unashamed of it.

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

<That doesn't mean in any way that the Reagan Administration condoned or sanctioned gas attacks, any more than Secretary Albright's having dinner with the tyrant of North Korea meant President Clinton thought he was a good guy.>

Talk about a half-truth. Having dinner with enemies is pretty tame stuff. We aided Saddam in his war against Iran. Whether that was justified or not is arguable; what's not is that we aided him, not just had dinner with him.

<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/dixon06172004.html" target="_blank">http://www.counterpunch.org/di
xon06172004.html</a>

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

"So the hitman gets the after-life equivalent of a time out? "

The very idea of Purgatory is ridiculous.

You have an infinite amount of time in the afterlife. Therefore, any amount of time is basically the same as nothing.

I mean, the limit of x as x->infinity of 1/x is 0. This is calculus. Purgatory, as long as it is finite, is of basically zero duration.

 

Originally Posted By jonvn

"hich is why war should be a true last resort"

Wars should only be fought if it means you are going to die yourself if you don't do it.

One war we have been in can be categorized as that, and that is WWII.

That's it.

The rest were adventures to make the nation's wealthy even wealthier.

It's why being in the service is a fool's errand.

 

Originally Posted By gadzuux

>> As opposed to gadzuux? What's he speaking in? <<

Keen insight based upon factual reality. Thanks for asking.

 

Originally Posted By cmpaley

>>So the hitman gets the after-life equivalent of a time out? <<

Purgatory is certainly NOT a "time out." Purgatory HURTS.

Tell me, does the following picture look like a mere "time out?"

<a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Lonelysoul.jpg" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi
kipedia/en/2/23/Lonelysoul.jpg</a>

Looks pretty unpleasant to me...in a cell, in flames and in shackles. That's just purgatory...which is about being purified. Hell is just about suffering the torment of dying forever.

 

Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder

Please tell me you didn't post that picture as evidence to prove purgatory exists.