Originally Posted By ecdc I'm not as young as I wish I was So that's one legal change, but that's kind of the point. The exceptions negate the rules. Is there evidence the constraints have worked? Have officer involved shootings gone down since the 1980s? And if they have, does that mean we're somehow content with the status quo? In the meantime, everyone ought to read this: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/25/opinion/on-the-death-of-sandra-bland-and-our-vulnerable-bodies.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad&_r=0&referrer=">http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015...eferrer=</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I don't have data. I don't know if it would even be available. I doubt crimes not investigated or prosecuted were ever tallied. But back in the 50's and before, how many rapes of Black women by white men were ever investigated? How much time did cops spend investigating lynchings of Black men? As for mistreatment of Black people by cops, I'm sure there was plenty of that to go around also. There was maybe a short "golden era" in the fairly recent past where Blacks were treated better than they are today, but through most of history they have been treated far worse. That is certainly not saying that what is going on today is acceptable. But you asked how we ended up with the situation we have today, and I said it had always been that way. And for the most part, I still think I'm right.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>This cop was clearly on a power-trip and escalated where he should have de-escalated<< My BIL is a cop in the UK. He has told me that American cops' biggest failure is their utter inability to de-escalate, and yes, they talk about this in the UK and use American cops as an example of how NOT to handle situations. Our boys in blue, to blunt, are world famous for being thugs.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Our boys in blue, to blunt, are world famous for being thugs.>> Certainly a fair percentage of them are. And you never know when the one stopping you is one of the bad ones. That is why I said people HAVE to go into survival mode and react to them the same way you would react to any other armed thug on the street. Do whatever the hell you can to get out of the situation alive. That is NOT blaming the victim. It is giving advice on how to keep from becoming a corpse.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <That is NOT blaming the victim. It is giving advice on how to keep from becoming a corpse.> It's a fine line. It's fine as advice, but it's rotten as a basis for public policy, or even public opinion. If I had kids, I'll tell them to do exactly what you said. Pretty much EVERY black parent I've ever talked to talks about the necessity of having that talk with their kids. But you know what? Sometimes people don't react in the absolutely rational way, and sometimes (and I know this will come as a shock), teenagers don't do what their parents tell them. So if they don't... and the cop acts unacceptably... that's still ON THE COP. They're the ones ostensibly trained in handling these situations. I'm just hoping the ever growing number of devices capable of videoing interactions leads eventually to a new normal in which cops have to assume they're being videoed, and have to assume their jobs are on the line if they act that this Texas cop. That would be both good for the good cops who do things right who could potentially be charged with brutality or worse when unwarranted, and bad for the bad cops who really are unacceptably brutal or worse.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Absolutely. I'm not talking about what is right or just. I'm not talking about what public opinion should be. I'm not talking about what public policy should be. I'm talking about survival. "Black Lives Matter". I just want to see more of them live. Live to seek justice in the press and the legal system. If you die, you are just one more victim.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Well, these things are not really contradictions. As I said, every black parent I've ever met DID have "the talk" from their own parents and has given it to their own kids, usually multiple times. So it's not as though people aren't aware. It just irks me when we see an encounter like this and people (not talking about you, RT) invariably chime in with "well, they shouldn't have talked back." Maybe on one level, yes. But x-number of people will, and when that happens, it's on THE COP, not the citizen, if things go bad.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Sometimes people don't react in the absolutely rational way<< The double standard here boggles my mind. A cop does something wrong and we hear about what a stressful job it is and how difficult it is and nobody's perfect. A person getting stopped by a cop who doesn't behave precisely right is an idiot who should know better and who essentially got what was coming to them for not remaining perfectly calm and doing everything the cop tells them, no matter how unfair.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>If I had kids, I'll tell them to do exactly what you said.<< I have had this talk with my kids, even though we live in a lily white, upper middle class community. I have explained to them that cops in the US can literally get away with murder and that under no circumstance should the ever give a cop any lip or they can end up in a body bag. This is the sad reality of what life has become in the American Police State. A situation where law abiding citizens live in deadly fear of the police. A nation where we now have to install dash cams in police cars to keep the thugs in blue in check, and even that doesn't work as they commit their atrocities fecklessly on camera.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck It is becoming more difficult not to be frustrated with police interactions. Game wardens have become nothing but cops. Forest Rangers have become nothing but cops. School cops, campus cops, hospital cops, mall cops, blah blah blah. So now when your out fishing, what used to be a simple request for your fishing license can easily turn into a full blown legal shakedown. Especially if you show some level of agitation. Camping in the woods can be a real drag when a Forest Service cop is poking around your campsite looking for anything that will ruin your day. They are everywhere, and we are supposed to maintain this docile, obedient attitude, even, or especially when these clowns are being total jerks. I have been there. I lived in a small town where the cops thought they were Gods, and back then they could get away with just about anything.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>They are everywhere, and we are supposed to maintain this docile, obedient attitude, even, or especially when these clowns are being total jerks.<< It's like we live in the old Soviet Union. I have no problem being cordial during an encounter with the police, I just wish they would behave the same way. Fortunately my last encounter with the police was almost 10 years ago, a minor traffic stop because the tags on my car were expired. I was polite and apologized for forgetting to renew. The two cops gave me the stink eye and were trying to provoke me, insinuating that I was some kind of thug and that they were going to find something on me. Of course, they kept me waiting forever while they checked on every database in the country, looking for an excuse to arrest me. Much to their chagrin, I was squeaky clean and they had to let me go with a ticket.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Years ago, a buddy and I went to Yosemite after work on Friday to do some climbing. Got in late and no campsites, so threw our bags out to wait for morning. Six A.M. and here comes Park Ranger cop, full of piss and vinegar. Completely rousted us. Searched the truck, called in licenses, and was going to cite for open containers for the two beers we drank before turning in. All through the ordeal I could see a little smirk on his face as he ran us through the wringer. Solid hour wasted with this pathetic creep when all he had to say was "get going guys."
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I'm with RoadTrip. There are all sorts of lofty ideas about freedoms and rights and fairness and so on, but those are social constructs that at the end of the day are predicated on the idea that people are rational and will make rational decisions. The point is to survive, and from a purely biological perspective it is to survive long enough to reproduce. Life may suck under the current system for a lot of people but taking yourself out of the potential gene pool over perceived disrespect is not a good end to an unbroken line of successful survival stretching back 3 billion years.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "You shouldn't die for not behaving with a cop 100% the way the cop thinks you should" is not a lofty ideal. It's a basic.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Use the word "should" or "shouldn't" and you're talking about an ideal and a socially constructed idea of fairness. The basic thing is how to get through an event with the best chance of coming out of it alive.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 We're talking about two different things. I've already said if I had kids I'd tell them what to do in such a situation, despite it not being fair. However, if someone does end up dead because a cop overreacts, we need to put that ON THE COP, not on the victim. Once we're into the law, then yeah- the law is indeed socially constructed and (ostensibly) about fairness.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Sure, it's on the cop when it comes to placing blame. At least partially. But victims are not always completely without blame.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I have to disagree with you here. If a person doesn't do anything to warrant being killed, he or she shouldn't be killed. It's blaming to victim to suggest otherwise. Was the person cranky/having a bad day/speaking provocatively to the cop? Maybe. But that's like blaming a rape victim for dressing provocatively. It's on the rapist, not her.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip If you are freaking dead it doesn't make much difference if it was the cop's fault. What part of that do you guys not understand? SURVIVE.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss ""You shouldn't die for not behaving with a cop 100% the way the cop thinks you should" is not a lofty ideal. It's a basic." I realize there have been cases where the police have killed a suspect, but AFAIK, Sandra Bland did not die at the hands of the police. She took her own life. As for the authorities responsibility for that, what should that be?
