Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I think more cameras everywhere, the better. Really, anyone in custody should be on full view of a camera at all times. Considering what we spend on incarceration, adding the cost of cameras is insignificant. And likewise law enforcement. Body cameras, dash cams, cameras everywhere. Otherwise we will continue to have both abuse and constant he said/she said debates over what really happened in these situations. Video can be used to better train officers in the art of DE-ESCALATING situations. That would make things better all around.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <What part of that do you guys not understand?> We're talking about two different things. BEFORE the fact, absolutely - talk to your kids, say it over and over to yourself... but after the fact, STOP BLAMING THE FREAKING VICTIM.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<BEFORE the fact, absolutely - talk to your kids, say it over and over to yourself... but after the fact, STOP BLAMING THE FREAKING VICTIM.>> I doubt the dead person worries about it a whole lot. They are DEAD!
Originally Posted By Tikiduck The thing is, some people are not as intellectually capable of always doing or saying the right thing. Then faced with some bossy, impatient cop, they can panic or freak out, or whatever, leading to the infamous "escalation". So the notion of personal responsibility, especially regarding the public is open to very broad interpretation. But personal responsibility to a "trained professional", on the job, who is a paid representative of his city, county or state should be expected at all times, with infractions being seriously reprimanded. The problem is that these infractions are simply ignored, covered up, or in extreme cases even encouraged.
Originally Posted By Mr X I agree with Tiki. I also understand there are 2 different points at play here. Someone who intentionally (or even unintentionally) baits a cop is playing with fire, and liable to get burned. Having said that, the cops need to be held accountable MUCH more than they currently are, rather than we (as a society) simply saying "well, that guy was a dummy for giving the officer lip in the first place, what'd you expect?" and leaving it at that.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I doubt the dead person worries about it a whole lot. They are DEAD!> I'm talking about what our response as a society should be. It shouldn't be blaming the victim. Tiki nails it. Not everybody always acts the way they know, in a more calm moment, is the way to act. And teenagers especially (shocker) don't always do what we tell them to do. They shouldn't end up dead for it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm talking about what our response as a society should be. It shouldn't be blaming the victim.<< Exactly. The idea that someone doesn't act 100% like the perfect citizen does not equate to they should end up dead. RT, you keep focusing on the individual response vs. the systemic problems, which is horribly misguided. You do not solve violence and brutality by yelling at everyone to just comply with people in power. You solve violence and brutality by ENDING VIOLENCE AND BRUTALITY perpetuated by those in power. Telling people to shut up and comply to stay alive as the ultimate goal only reinforces the current status quo which perpetuates violence *even when people behave perfectly.* And of course, it's easy for you to lecture everyone on their behavior because, as a white male, it is unlikely that you will ever have to actually follow your own advice. There seems to be this deeply screwed up idea that if someone doesn't act 100% the perfect citizen, then they are partially responsible. That is beyond wrong. If someone acts 90% the perfect citizen in an encounter and they end up dead, they are not somehow 10% responsible for their death. That cop is still 100% responsible, because he/she is the professional who is supposedly trained to deal with people who do not behave 100% correctly. If someone is 50% the perfect citizen, the cop is *still* 100% responsible for their death.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And of course, it's easy for you to lecture everyone on their behavior because, as a white male, it is unlikely that you will ever have to actually follow your own advice.>> Actually I have... 44 years ago in a lily-white suburb of the Twin Cities. I was driving late at night when I saw the flashing lights behind me. I had no idea why I was being stopped... I was not speeding and I was driving a brand new car so I was pretty sure there were no equipment violations. When the cop came up to the car he ordered me out and spread-eagled me on the side of the car at gunpoint. I was never told why I was stopped... I was scared to death. After about 5 minutes the cop's partner came up and said I checked out OK. They apologized, saying that a car matching mine had recently been reported stolen in the neighborhood where I was driving. I certainly do not "blame the victim" and frankly it gets irritating as hell that you keep throwing that at me. But just as teens and others do not always do what they have been told to do; cops do not always do what they have been trained to do and what regulations require. They get in a stressful situation and the training goes out the window, just as it does with the teen. It is not as simple as telling cops to just not act like that. They are ALREADY told that. All we can do is increase use of body cameras etc to record their actions, and fire them when they violate regulations. Of course the power of police unions sometimes makes that difficult. But no matter what we do, poor and at times criminal behavior by cops will happen. They are human, and invariable humans make major mistakes. And that is why the individual stopped also needs to try to keep from escalating the situation. You never know when you might run into that cop who either hasn't been caught yet, or is reacting in a way he normally wouldn't. Whose fault is it? The cop's, of course. They are armed, they are in a position of power. But people should do what they can to stay alive. Being right but dead doesn't mean much.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Telling people to shut up and comply to stay alive as the ultimate goal only reinforces the current status quo which perpetuates violence *even when people behave perfectly.* ... There seems to be this deeply screwed up idea that if someone doesn't act 100% the perfect citizen, then they are partially responsible. That is beyond wrong. > ^This.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <It is not as simple as telling cops to just not act like that. They are ALREADY told that.> In some departments they are. In others, there has been a tacit understanding that while that's the "official" line, in practice they can get away with plenty, and the department will back them up. <All we can do is increase use of body cameras etc to record their actions, and fire them when they violate regulations. > We can do more than just fire them; we can prosecute them if they commit actual crimes. And send a message that if they do, they can go to jail. Body cameras are pretty new. It's going to take a while to "unlearn" decades of standard operating procedure in a lot of departments. So many of the incidents we've seen lately on camera would simply have ended up with the system taking the cop's word for it, had they happened in earlier years. Right up to and including Walter Scott being shot in the back in SC; and that wasn't even a body camera, it was a passer-by's cellphone. Without that, the cop would have walked; he'd already lied to his superiors. This is a decades-long problem and police culture in too many places (not all), that is just now coming to light - at least for a lot of Americans.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Whose fault is it? The cop's, of course. They are armed, they are in a position of power. But people should do what they can to stay alive. Being right but dead doesn't mean much.<< So you're not blaming the victim, you're just saying this is how it is and there's nothing we can do to change it so just go with it? Seriously? No solutions whatsoever to change violence largely perpetrated against the poor and minorities? Yay, American exceptionalism!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I believe I did suggest change. You just ignored it because it didn't fit your pre-conceived notion of what I say. << All we can do is increase use of body cameras etc to record their actions, and fire them when they violate regulations.>>
Originally Posted By Tikiduck When you think about the time before video, think about the hundreds of thousands of people who have been humiliated, brutalized and murdered at the hands of our police forces. All with no legal recourse whatsoever. Even with video, we are only seeing a tiny fraction of what is going on out there, and what we are seeing can be terrifying. This Thin Blue Line has become America's Berlin Wall. We have an ongoing legacy of violence against citizens dating back to the infancy of the nation, and there can be no doubt that African Americans have borne the brunt of it. We have to apply equal justice to the police and enforce it with passion. We need to scald out those in power who cover up and perpetuate these incidents. This is not about tying up the police and rendering them helpless, it's about justice for all. It's about stopping people from being brutalized or shot to death for no honest, (or legal) reason.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss "think about the hundreds of thousands of people who have been humiliated, brutalized and murdered at the hands of our police forces." Hundreds of thousands? While I think there is a problem, I don't think it's a widespread as the media portrays it, or how the public perceives it.
Originally Posted By ecdc << All we can do is increase use of body cameras etc to record their actions, and fire them when they violate regulations.>> Except that's far from all we can do. Eric Garner's death was filmed. Several other deaths have been filmed and those police officers were exonerated and allowed to keep their jobs. I genuinely appreciate that you want to keep people safe and don't want them to end up dead, but spending 90% of the time talking about compliance and 10% of the time talking about "well maybe we can film them and fire them" just won't cut it. We're on a silly Disney message board and we aren't saving the world, but it's a prevalent attitude out there and it starts with us to change it and demand change in our communities.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck "Hundreds of thousands?" When thinking in the past tense, which I was referring to, I consider that rather conservative. In fact, I could see that number as being valid within the last five years. Remember,"humiliated, brutalized and murdered". Also remember that what is being recorded, and thus reported, is only the tip of the iceberg.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Much of the problem lies outside the police department. So often Prosecutors see charging a cop as a political hot potato and throw the decision to a Grand Jury. And as we've seen, Grand Juries are very reluctant to charge cops.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I doubt the dead person worries about it a whole lot. They are DEAD!<< But their families do. The person murdered by the cops isn't the only victim of state sanctioned brutality.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>In some departments they are. In others, there has been a tacit understanding that while that's the "official" line, in practice they can get away with plenty, and the department will back them up.<< Yup. What happens EVERY TIME a cop murders an unarmed citizen, even when the crime is caught on video? They circle the wagons and insist that their "brother officer" is innocent. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Originally Posted By ecdc <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://twitter.com/polotek/status/627936659422646273">http://twitter.com/polotek/sta...22646273</a>
