Originally Posted By mele I should note that I realize that in the sermon, the minister only mentions 'witchcraft' once. But he accused a woman in another country of using witchcraft to cause car accidents. How this man has any credibility amazes me. But, like I said, having a local politician come up to the stage so the minister can pray that she receives money for her campaign...shameful. How is that okay?
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 I have a life, so missed a lot of the action here last night. RoadTrip, I couldn't have agreed with you more on all your posts from 140 on. You put it all beautifully. My son was deployed in 2003, 2005 and 2007 each time for 6-7 months. Was I a wreck, yes. But this was his choice. Although I don't like our troops defending people who really don't seem to like us, if we pull out now, everyone who died or was wounded there, was for nothing.
Originally Posted By Mr X You really think so? Bush and the Iraqi government agree with Obama though, that now is the time for an exit. Only McCain disagrees. So, what would YOUR exit strategy be, then? How many more years should we remain (while the body count continues to increase). I'm really surprised you agree so strongly with RoadTrip anyway. He is basically suggesting that they're using your son and others as sacrificial offerings to the terrorists so they'll leave the American mainland alone. Does that seem right to you? Sure doesn't to me!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Although I don't like our troops defending people who really don't seem to like us*** Many have suggested (including former fed chair Alan Greenspan) that they are "defending" no one, except for the oil interests. To me, THAT is the true tragedy. And it does make those tragic deaths all the more unnecessary..whether the dying ends now or half a decade or more from now.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I'm really surprised you agree so strongly with RoadTrip anyway. He is basically suggesting that they're using your son and others as sacrificial offerings to the terrorists so they'll leave the American mainland alone.>> You apparently don't understand what the Armed Forces have always been about. They make the sacrifice to protect the rest of us here at home. I admit it can be hard to understand such courage and selflessness, but I'm damned glad we have some folks that will do that for us. When we take the fight to the terrorist over there it is also a more fair fight. The best Armed Forces in the world are a little more suited to take on the bad guys than a skyscraper full of civilians watching a 757 come at them.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***They make the sacrifice to protect the rest of us here at home.*** There's a difference between making a sacrifice and being a sacrificial lamb. Your bizarre theory suggests the latter. And I understand plenty, so kindly don't treat me like an idiot.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<When we take the fight to the terrorist over there it is also a more fair fight. The best Armed Forces in the world are a little more suited to take on the bad guys than a skyscraper full of civilians watching a 757 come at them.>> Funny thought how our borders are still basically a sieve (gotta have that illegal labor after all). I don't see how occupying Iraq will prevent Bin Ladin from hitting us at home again.
Originally Posted By Mr X RoadTrip has some bizarre theory that as long as Bin Ladin et al have American soldiers to shoot at, they're willing to abstain from attacking the U.S. homeland. That's the part I was driving at.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Lots of people believe in "spiritual warfare" like that. This video will not hurt her, imho. In fact, it may help. Criticism of it is just religious intolerance...<< I can't believe my eyes. Someone actually made this statement? Or do I need re-rub my eyes .. and realize the poster is actually more rational than this?!
Originally Posted By mele Being frightened of people who pray against witches in the 21st century seems like common sense, not intolerance. Hunting witches, however, definitely falls under that category.
Originally Posted By ecdc Being wary of irrationality isn't intolerance, it's intelligence. It's just too ironic that religion, so frequently one of the most intolerant segments of our culture, now tries to shield itself from criticism with political correctness. "How dare you question our right to hate witches or gays! You intolerant bigot!" As usual, we can see just how absurd this stuff is when you take it out of the realm of religion and apply it to other walks of life. Imagine having a doctor who told you that you had a gnome living in your lungs that was causing your disease. Would we have any respect for that? Only when something gets called religion do we say, "Well it's someone's beliefs, so that's ok."
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>It's comical to me to see people take offense at being called an idiot if they support this ticket, when they can't respond to some core questions about it.<< And if someone wants to call me arrogant for this line .. go ahead: it's like ....... "I'm doing something that is idiotic, but I don't want to be called out on it." Have your cake, and eat it too.
Originally Posted By ecdc That's a fair point, OC. I get that the word "idiot" is very loaded and frequently used as an insult. But really, at what point is it acceptable to say something is foolish or unwise and not have everyone jump down your throat for being insensitive? At what point can reasonable people realize that not every topic deserves equal footing where we just "agree to disagree" as if both points are equally valid? If I say I'm going to go jump off a tall building to see if I can fly to work one day, and then someone retorts with, "You know that's not such a good idea. Gravity will pull you to the earth and kill you. Your children will be fatherless and your death will most likely be interpreted as a suicide so your family won't collect your life insurance." If I come back with, "But I see birds flying all the time. I disagree with you that I can't fly." Are these points on equal footing? Should we be respectful of my position that it's a good idea to try and fly? Or is it ok at some point to call someone, if not an idiot, at least naive or foolish? I know it's an extreme analogy, but I feel like I watch my fellow Americans being nearly as a naive. We watch people say "Well, in my opinion, making sure gays can't get married is more important than making sure my job won't get off-shored." We've watched someone on this thread with a child in the military say they'd rather vote for the person who's going to keep their child in harms way, even though it was a disastrous decision from the outset. We watch people invent multiple fictitious reasons for believing that Bush is a great President, or that Iraq was a good idea. The facts are completely ignored or shunted aside. And politeness apparently dictates that we say, "I respect your opinion and your views. We'll just have to disagree." Sorry, maybe I am arrogant. Maybe I'm a jerk. But I have a hard time swallowing that it's all on equal footing and that all viewpoints ought to be respected. Reason and logic ought to be respected.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Sorry, maybe I am arrogant. Maybe I'm a jerk.<< It comes down to ideology. And in my own personal opinion ... it comes down Ignorance is more comforting .. for some strange unforeseen reason. In the case of this strange "witchy" video .... I cannot see how ANYONE with a sense of rationality, sense, objectivity can just gloss over this. I cannot see how anyone can defend it. Unless you are so hard-core Republican .. you put your idealogy and your party (so vehemently!) first ..... and leave any common sense at the door!
Originally Posted By oc_dean If common sense, rationality, and objectivity are all arrogant traits .... I'll take that arrogance over ignorance any day!
Originally Posted By oc_dean Since the minute Sarah Palin was introduced ... the stack immediately built up against her favor. Well .. that stack of one too many items has risen to the height of the Empire State Building. Anyone still defending her to become VP (and one heartbeat away from P.) .. you must be all "ideology" for your party. And if anyone calls you "stupid" for it, look at the 999 reasons she is not right for VP choice. Even people who call themselves Republican are coming out on it.
Originally Posted By Mr X I want to get back to this now that I've learned more (particularly I'd like to hear from Dug who made these original comments). ***Criticism like this would make a lot more sense if it were divorced from all the sensationalism and, well, nonsense.*** ***also many people (Christian and otherwise) who believe there are literal witches.*** So there are people out there who believe that some people have supernatural, demonic powers, and we're supposed to RESPECT that? ***Running this clip along with snarky comment from partisans, weird stuff about "backward speech" (um, yeah) and what I will plainly call religious bigotry*** So what would you say about the pastor in question (one whom Palin credits with "helping" her become governor) who actually went to Kenya to persecute an alleged "witch" who was somehow causing car accidents there? I suppose we should respect his beliefs and his devotion, huh?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder ">>It's comical to me to see people take offense at being called an idiot if they support this ticket, when they can't respond to some core questions about it.<< And if someone wants to call me arrogant for this line .. go ahead: it's like ....... "I'm doing something that is idiotic, but I don't want to be called out on it." Have your cake, and eat it too." And even with Road Trip's "I don't care", no one has stepped up to my call for a rational explanation as to why they could support Palin in light of her abortion views and now, her obvious lack of qualifications for the job. With Pawlenty, Romney, Huckabee, Hutchinson, even Condi Rice, no one, at least me anyway, would be throwing around terms like "idiot". Yes, the word is inflammatory, that's why I've used it freely and intentionally. The pick was an unmitigated insult to women, rational Republicans, and the country as whole, and done as a conceit to pander to the far right and to get McCain elected at any cost. It's not just a poke in the eye, it's a dagger meant to blind people to their own sensibilities.
