Originally Posted By HyperTyper retlawfan is totally correct. Clinton was impeached because he broke the law. Libby was convicted because he broke the law. Period. Our system isn't perfect, but it's the closest thing we've got to it on this planet. Having been a juror, I know it is dang near impossible to convict someone who isn't truly guilty. The system, while flawed, does render verdicts that are just most of the time (the O.J. Simpson case excepted, of course). Democrats are trying to use this case to say the rationale behind the war was a lie. Republicans are saying that the Libby verdict criminalizes policy and politics. (Rush Limbaugh, yesterday.) BOTH sides are full of political nonsense. Libby said things which WERE against the law to say. It doesn't matter if Joe Wilson lied (he did) ... that doesn't justify Libby or anyone else obstructing justice or committing perjury. The response to the verdict ought to be embarrassing for both sides. May I paraphrase? "NEENER NEENER!" "But it's not FAIR! Those guys lied too!" "Oh yeah? Well this proves you're all liars with your pants on fire! NEENER!" Oh for cryin' out loud ... I've heard more intellectual debate on the grade school playground. I'm a teacher. I'm not even kidding. Conservatives need to stop being babies about this, take their medicine, and move on. Liberals need to stop being babies about this, stop the gloating and using this limited verdict to say whatever they want it to say. Washington! What a place!
Originally Posted By JohnS1 The one thing which really bothered me about this whole trial was that Libby claimed he forgot events several times during the trial, and jurors seized upon this to say that people don't forget things that often, so he must be guilty. However, a half dozen other people who were questioned during the trial - some of them as witnesses for the prosecution - also said they forgot things. Doesn't this suggest that forgetfulness is more prevalent than a person might initially think? Or are all the other people who said they forgot things lying as well? Novak, by the way, was on a few talking head shows last night and said that Libby got shafted; that he (Novak) was first to reveal Valerie Flame's position, that she wasn't covert at the time anyway, and that it was Richard Armitage who should have testified and who should be in jail. Interesting. Finally, Bush pardoning Libby won't even come close to the likes of people pardoned by Clinton when he made his exit from the White House.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Finally, Bush pardoning Libby won't even come close to the likes of people pardoned by Clinton when he made his exit from the White House.>> Oh come now... you don't REALLY want to play that game, do you? Here is a list of pardons granted by George H.W. Bush; the last Republican President to leave office. August 14, 1989 Pardoned • Joe llen Deckert (1979 Misprision of felony (relating to illegal firearms sales)) • Donald Alvin Dibble III (1978 Illegal possession of firearm with obliterated serial number) • Leo Friedman (1969 Mail embezzlement) • Armand Hammer (1976 Making campaign contribution in name of another (misdemeanor)) • Charles Arnold Jacobs (1979 Submission of false income tax return) • Mary Lou Peet (1978 Fraudulent transfer of property in contemplation of bankruptcy) • Robert Gary Rice (1973 Submitting false statements to Federal Housing Administration) • Billy Wayne Rodgers (1973 Transporting firearm in foreign commerce, Insubordination in violation of Article 91, Uniform Code of Military Justice) • Raymond Joseph Shovelski (1974 Conspiracy to accept kickbacks on Government contracts) Commutation • Douglas Bruce Fenimore (1981 Receiving and concealing stolen property, interstate transportation of stolen property, and bank robbery) July 18, 1990 Pardoned • Orlando Bosch 1. (1968 convicted for taking part in a bazooka attack on a Havana-bound Polish freighter docked at the Port of Miami)[1] 2. (1974 violating parole) March 5, 1991 Pardoned • Dorothy Christina Damush (1982 Conspiracy to transport stolen goods in interstate commerce) • David Feld (1980 Interference with agent of National Labor Relations Board (misdemeanor)) • Mark Christopher Felling (1980 Theft of mail by postal employee) • Howard William Fitzsimmons (1974 Embezzlement of Government property) • Garth Stuart Hancock (1959 Conspiracy to violate Commodity Credit Regulations) • Charles Walker Harrison (1966 Unlawful possession of narcotics without having paid transfer tax) • Geary Travis Holstead (1978 Theft of mail by postal employee) • Michael Dennis Larsen (1977 Bank embezzlement) • Mark Allen Nelson (1975 Involuntary manslaughter in violation of Article 119, UCMJ) • Robert Anthony Pagnanelli (1980 Conspiracy to defraud United States and mail fraud) • William George Spurlock (1953 Interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicle) • Harold Bennett Stewart (1963 Theft of Government property) • Bernice Lena Telgemeier (1980 Attempted income tax evasion) • Julius Henry Telgemeier (1980 Attempted income tax evasion) • William Newton Tunnell, Jr. (1977 Bank embezzlement) • Robert Lee Warner (1979 Obstruction of mail) • James Alexander Womack (1978 Possession of stolen mail) July 5, 1991 Pardoned • Joseph Berger (1959 Transporting gambling devices within a special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States) • Miles Oakley Bidwell (1962 Filing false statement) • Edward Meredith Dawsey (1981 Making false statements to the Office of Workmen's Compensation Programs) • Leonard Gilmor (1975 Mail fraud and aiding and abetting) • Lewis Isador Goltz (1976 Sale of firearms to out-of-state resident, failure to register firearms, failure to make appropriate entry in firearm acquisition disposition records) • Wayne Stanley LaTour (1980 Dealing in firearms without a license) • Thomas Leoutsakos (1968 Sale of methamphetamine (misdemeanor)) • Mary Mahoney Longwell (1976 Embezzlement of bank funds) • Barbara Cecil Livenia Chapman Portwood (1962 Forgery) • Laurie Virginia Rossetti (1976 Engaging in the conduct of an illegal gambling business) • Myra Soble (1957 Conspiracy to receive and obtain national defense information and transmit same to foreign government) • Rudolph Hartsel Young (1960 Embezzlement of postal funds and falsification of postal records) December 24, 1992 Pardoned • Caspar W. Weinberger (1988 Several counts of perjury, See Iran-Contra Affair) • Elliott Abrams (1988 Two counts of unlawfully withholding information. See Iran-Contra Affair) • Duane R. Clarridge (1991 Seven counts of perjury and false statements, See Iran-Contra Affair) • Alan D. Fiers (1991 Two misdemeanor counts of withholding information from the Congress, See Iran-Contra Affair) • Clair George 1. (1991 Ten counts of perjury, false statements and obstruction) 2. (1992 two felony charges of false statements and perjury before Congress — see Iran-Contra Affair) • Robert C. McFarlane (1988 See Iran-Contra Affair) • Joseph Bear, Jr. (1964 Burglary on Indian Reservation) • Thomas Burley Berry (1980 Detaining and destroying mail) • Robert William Dailey, Sr. (1943 Failure to report for induction into the military in violation of the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940) • Paul Karsten Fauteck 1. (1950 Interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicle) 2. (1955 Conspiracy to smuggle alien into United States and attempting to conceal alien) 3. (1955 Transporting false securities in interstate commerce) 4. (1954 Absent without leave from Army and wrongful disposition of government property) 5. (1955 Absent without leave) • Dale Leonard Fix (1944 Failure to report for military duty in violation of Selective Service Act of 1940) • Francene Geiger (1980 Bank embezzlement) • Ivan Leon Gentry (1946 Transporting stolen motor vehicle in interstate commerce) • Joseph Gordon Haynie, Jr. (1973 Misapplication of bank funds) • Henry Levin (1973 Violation of Customs regulations) • Guillermo Medrano Moreno 1. (1961 Failure to register as narcotics user) 2. (1967 Illegal importation and sale of heroin) • Frank T. Passini, III (1978 Possession and sale of 5,000 grams of marijuana and wrongful possession of 50 grams of marijuana in violation of Article 134, Uniform Code of Military Justice) • Donald Rightmire (1984 Misprision of a felony) • Edwin Roberts (1947 Carrying on the business of a distiller, possessing an unregistered whiskey still, and making and fermenting mash fit for distillation) • Patrick James Sheehan (1981 Misapplication of bank funds) • Hildred Earl Spates (1971 Theft of government property) • Alfredo Encinas Villarreal (1971 Theft of mail by postal employee) • Jack Alvin Walker (1956 Failure to report for military duty in violation of Selective Service Act of 1950) • Carl Frank Westminster, Jr. (1977 Possession, sale, and transfer of controlled substance in violation of Article 92, Uniform Code of Military Justice) January 15, 1993 Commutation • Joseph Occhipinti (1991 Conspiracy to violate civil rights, deprivation of rights under color of law (misdemeanor), and making false statement) January 18, 1993 Pardoned • Robert Edward Leigh Barnhill (1980 Bid rigging in violation of Sherman Antitrust Act) • George Edward Clements, III (1987 Knowingly making false declarations before grand jury) • Edwin L. Cox, Jr. (1988 Bank fraud) • Lloyd Earl Davis (1981 Making false entries in bank records) • James Lewis Donawho (1979 Making false statement to government agency) • John Stinson Howell, III (1979 Income tax evasion) • Charles Elvin Huffman (1955 Larceny on a government reservation) • Thomas Arthur Kardashian (1974 Offering gratuities to public officials) • Frederick Irwin Lorber (1962 Obtaining marijuana without paying transfer tax) • Richard Norris Ware (1973 Aiding and abetting bank embezzlement (misdemeanor)) • Albert Teyechea Williams (1980 Conspiracy to misapply bank funds) • Clyde Henry Umphenour, Jr. (1956 & 1961 Two counts Interstate transportation of forged securities) Commutation • Aslam P. Adam (1985 Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute heroin, importation of heroin, and use of mail in committing felony) Source: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G eorge_H._W._Bush</a>'s_pardons
Originally Posted By DlandDug I finally got to sit down and read the paper (LA Times) and cut through the chatter (so to speak) and see what really happened yesterday. Quoting from a sidebar, Libby was convicted of the following: Perjury-- For lying about his conversation with NBC journalist Tim Russert; Perjury-- For lying about conversations with other reporters; Making a false statement-- To the FBI about a conversation with Russert; Obstruction of justice-- For intentionally deceiving a grand jury investigating the exposure of Valerie Plame as a CIA operative. In addition, he was acquitted of Making False Statements, to the FBI about conversations with former Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper. What struck me in all this is that all but one of these charges dealt with journalists. I cannot recall another instance when a federal prosecutor used so many reporters to essentially make their case. You may recall that one, Judith Miller of the New York Times, was actually jailed in conjunction with this case. While I have no argument with the verdict, I would think that those who are whooping it up over the outcome of this case might want to take a step back and consider how it was achieved. Whenever the White House attempts to coopt reporters, there is a hue and cry (rightly so). Does anyone here find anything remotely troubling in the way reporters were used in this case?
Originally Posted By JohnS1 "Here is a list of pardons granted by George H.W. Bush; the last Republican President to leave office." A) I wasn't talking about George Bush senior. B) I bet Clinton's list is longer! (-;
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh According to Wikipedia, President Clinton pardoned 140 people, and President Bush 41 pardoned 78.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh Personally, I don't think President Bush will need to pardon Mr Libby. I think Mr Libby will win on appeal. This trial was a joke. How does one obstruct justice when there is no underlying crime?
Originally Posted By alexbook You're right, Clinton issued 456 pardons, putting him #20 on the list. GHWB is #36 with 77 pardons, the fewest of any 20th Century president. Most pardons: FDR (3,687) Fewest pardons by a president completed his term: George Washington (16) (James Garfield and William Harrison issued no pardons.) <a href="http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardonspres1.htm" target="_blank">http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/par donspres1.htm</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<According to Wikipedia, President Clinton pardoned 140 people, and President Bush 41 pardoned 78.>> I wasn't going for a "who's worst" list. I just wanted to point out that ALL presidents seemingly abuse their power to pardon. I thought 41 had a lot of integrity, but even he got into the pardon game in a big way.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh I see my error. The wikipedia entry for President Clinton was only for the people he pardoned just before leaving office, and didn't count all the people he pardoned before that.
Originally Posted By friendofdd i am waiting for the Republican members of Congress to gather in front of the Capital in support of Libby and his criminal actions. At least, I assume it is always done that way.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>How does one obstruct justice when there is no underlying crime?<< We know how -- by impeding the investigation in the ways detailed in the convictions. The question is, why does one obstruct justice if there is no underlying crime?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "What struck me in all this is that all but one of these charges dealt with journalists. I cannot recall another instance when a federal prosecutor used so many reporters to essentially make their case. You may recall that one, Judith Miller of the New York Times, was actually jailed in conjunction with this case." What was Fitzgerald supposed to do, wait for him to have lied about conversations with non-journalists? Ask why Libby felt it necessary to lie about so many conversations with reporters.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Clinton was impeached because he broke the law. Libby was convicted because he broke the law. Period. " And when you jaywalk on an unbusy street, you are also breaking the law. Period. And they are all absolutely equivalent....yes, of course.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Personally, I don't think President Bush will need to pardon Mr Libby. I think Mr Libby will win on appeal. This trial was a joke. How does one obstruct justice when there is no underlying crime?" If those are your grounds, he loses the appeal. There doesn't need to be an underlying crime, and we don't know for sure there wasn't one, due to the fact all the obfuscation Libby employed made it impossible for Fitzgerald to discern one.
Originally Posted By jonvn Right. Impeding an investigation is a crime, regardless of whether a crime has been committed or not. You don't impede.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <We know how -- by impeding the investigation in the ways detailed in the convictions.> Well, I guess I'm just stupid, but I really don't understand how Mr Libby getting his story wrong impeded the investigation. I don't see how what was said between Mr Libby and Mr Russert and Mr Cooper had anything to do with the investigation. According to reports, Mr Fitzgerald already knew that it was Mr Armitage that told Mr Novak that Ms Plame worked for the CIA, and that's why Ambassador Wilson was chosen to go to Niger. Further, there's good evidence to suggest that Mr Fitzgerald already knew that Ms Plame's status wasn't covered by the law, so no crime was committed. And there's no evidence that Mr Libby was spreading around Ms Plame's job status, as has been suggested. <The question is, why does one obstruct justice if there is no underlying crime?> That is a good question, and one that leads me to believe that Mr Libby is telling the truth when he says he is not guilty. His supposed lies helped no one - there was no motive for him to have lied. And if one is going to make up a lie, why contradict someone who is going to be more believable than yourself?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <If those are your grounds, he loses the appeal.> Well, there will be plenty of grounds, so you don't have to worry about that. <There doesn't need to be an underlying crime, and we don't know for sure there wasn't one, due to the fact all the obfuscation Libby employed made it impossible for Fitzgerald to discern one.> How? How does Mr Libby getting two conversations wrong make it impossible for Mr Fitzgerald to discern if a crime was committed?
