Originally Posted By jonvn It was what happened to the Republicans. The right wing extremists took it over slowly, and it went from a conservative (what we now call libertarian) party to one which is run by nutcases. This is what has to happen to the democrats. Or the Republicans, too. It has to start with people wanting to get involved. But the extremists have made it very hard, because they have caused apathy in the public. That is precisely what is best for them, so they will continue to run the country into the ground based on their own distorted views of reality.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>it went from a conservative (what we now call libertarian) party to one which is run by nutcases. << Very true. But I think after this current bunch is outta there, there is hope for steering the party away from the failed neocon vision we've been subjected to for the past several years. Of course, as I say that, you have the GOP contenders falling over each other in their haste to say how they wholeheartedly agree with the president's decision to commute Libby's sentence...
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 What we have here folks is a discusting case of reciprocity at the highest levels of our government and it stinks of abuse but still nobody got hurt.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Nobody got hurt? Plame's covert career was ended, and anyone she worked with probably had their covert careers effectively ended too. We don't hear too much about this, and for good reasons, because all those people are, well, covert. So it's quite right that their names, unlike Plame's, are still secret. But no CIA agent works alone. She had contacts who were fellow agents. When she was outed, some of them would be also. The CIA typically sets up "shell" companies that these agents "work for" when they're overseas. So Plame goes overseas and says she works for "The XYZ Company" rather than "Hey, I'm Valerie, and I work for the CIA." It's hard and elaborate work setting up such a shell company and making it look real and plausible, should the bad guys investigate it. And they don't set up such a company for each agent. So when Plame was outed, and the people overseas realized that she "worked" for the XYZ Company, suddenly all the other agents who "worked" for the XYZ company were effectively outed as well. Their careers might have been ruined, their foreign contacts might have been endangered, and months or even years of work could have gone down the drain. This is why the CIA was so upset and demanded an investigation. As for the rest of us, at the very least it adds to the cynicism already festering in the body politic, and arguably that does hurt us.
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 Not only did these Wilsons not get hurt by this leak but they are benefitting too. They are better off now than before with book deals and consulting. Dabob, don't be telling us that Vallory was making millions of dollars as a government employee because as some mid level beaurocrat she was not paid that well. So losing her govt career was the best thing ever to happen to her. The Wilsons won alright, they won big time since she was outed.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>I'm picturing 3 chairs, some corny 70's music and Jim Lange hosting<< ROFL!!!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Not only did these Wilsons not get hurt by this leak but they are benefitting too. They are better off now than before with book deals and consulting. Dabob, don't be telling us that Vallory was making millions of dollars as a government employee because as some mid level beaurocrat she was not paid that well. So losing her govt career was the best thing ever to happen to her. The Wilsons won alright, they won big time since she was outed.> You have missed the point entirely. Her career was ruined. And any number of other people's probably were too, and any number of covert operations went down the drain due to this outing. If the Wilsons make out financially that's a separate matter, and irrelevant to the ethics of outing a covert agent. Certainly, they didn't invite this. And certainly the other agents and operations that would have been compromised see no benefit whatsoever, in fact just the opposite. Your claim that "no one got hurt" just doesn't wash.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I'm picturing 3 chairs, some corny 70's music and Jim Lange hosting> Hey - don't be calling the TJB corny!!
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 ///If the Wilsons make out financially that's a separate matter,/// it's not an if,, but a reality that they will make out handsomely so I shed no tears for her for losing her much much lower paying job and the millions she will get instead. ///and any number of covert operations went down the drain due to this outing./// and since we all know that the CIA for years has been doing some pretty damn nasty stuff to other people and places in addition to keeping america safe this might be a blessing. It might be a blessing or it might be a setback, we don't know do we???? The CIA could be out stopping the next terror plot, doctoring up a poisonous batch of Cuban cigars or funding ruthless dictators so once again nobody was hurt,,,,, that we know of. I think I will say it this way from now on,,,,//////nobody that we know of got hurt and some made out beautifully with book deals and contracts and legal fees//// And I do get the point quite well because earlier I said this whole thing stinks of rotting reciprocity and abuse at the highest levels of gvt.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> It might be a blessing or it might be a setback, we don't know do we? << Actually, we do know. Plame was involved in nuclear non-proliferation - specifically, tracking materials used for nuclear purposes - both for power and weapons. So as a result of this administration's placing a higher priority on covering up their own crimes than tracking nuclear materials, we're all at greater risk.
Originally Posted By jonvn I find it interesting that this behavior is in any way defended. A CIA agent working for our country was exposed for political purposes. This is basically treason as far as I'm concerned, and it is very odd that the usual flag waving right wingers are not up in arms about this very serious breach of national security. It just goes to show that the jingoistic patriotism exhibited by many only goes so far as it helps their political party. Beyond that, very few people seem to actually care about the country anymore.
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 ///A CIA agent working for our country was exposed for political purposes. This is basically treason/// absolutely right. This is treason all right if I ever seen it ((( if somebody outed her intentionally, which I can safely say happened))). But this piece treason is trivial nonsense compared to this administration's more sinister dealings. But yes, absolutely treasonous.
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 This whole thing is just like Capone tax evasion event. The federales could not get the goomba on giving his enemies ///Columbian neck ties/// and ///cement shoes/// so they find financial wrongdoings like tax fraud which is such damn trivial nonsense bull compared to slitting someone's throat and pulling a tongue through the new opening.
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 ////Actually, we do know. Plame was involved in nuclear non-proliferation - specifically, tracking materials used for nuclear purposes - both for power and weapons./// I really have a big urge to say something juicy and earthshaking about that but I don't know what to say at this time. Maybe I'll come up with something extra important in 4 1/2 hrs from now but then maybe I won't, only god knows my fate. Anyway you and Dabob are worthy sparring partners on here and I like doing this.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ///If the Wilsons make out financially that's a separate matter,/// <it's not an if,, but a reality that they will make out handsomely so I shed no tears for her for losing her much much lower paying job and the millions she will get instead.> Yet her career was ruined. Let's say your career was an animator, which you loved doing. Then someone chopped off your hands (which is kind of the equivalent of outing someone covert). You're able to sue that person for a couple million dollars, plus you write a book about your ordeal that sells well; you make more money than you could have as an animator, yet your career as an animator is ruined, and you can't do what you love any more. Did you "make out?" ///and any number of covert operations went down the drain due to this outing./// <and since we all know that the CIA for years has been doing some pretty damn nasty stuff to other people and places in addition to keeping america safe this might be a blessing. It might be a blessing or it might be a setback, we don't know do we???? > As gadzuux pointed out, she was involved in nuclear non-proliferation. <I think I will say it this way from now on,,,,//////nobody that we know of got hurt and some made out beautifully with book deals and contracts and legal fees////> No CIA agent works alone. So almost certainly other people involved in non-proliferation had their covers blown. That hurts them, and hurts us. And as I said before, it's highly arguable whether someone whose chosen career is ruined has "made out," money notwithstanding. <And I do get the point quite well because earlier I said this whole thing stinks of rotting reciprocity and abuse at the highest levels of gvt.> It's good that you get that. So I don't understand your terming this "BIG DEAL (not)" - it's quite true that this administration has almost certainly engaged in worse things; however, as you pointed out yourself, sometimes all you can get on Capone is tax evasion. Should we NOT nab him on tax evasion just because he also did more serious things?
Originally Posted By jonvn It really does not matter if she "made out" or not. The nation and its security was damaged. And the President let the one person they could find associated with this off so he does not go to prison, and is saying it is not ruling out a full pardon. Any defense of this behavior is defense of treason. And suggesting that treason within the highest offices of the government is not a big deal is outrageous.
Originally Posted By barboy If the anti Bush democratic faction in the House of Reps. feels cheated over the White House's commutation and potential pardon then the vocal HR members should have played their cards better.
