Originally Posted By DDMAN26 These are younger and future teachers. These are the ones who care more about the students than about themselves. They bust their butts I've seen it and I've heard about too. And all of them know they have a good job and good pension, but they realize the students have come first.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan My sister in law is a teacher who lives and breathes teaching. She has tenure but i can assure you that she does not sit around "doing what she wants." Rather, she is forced to move kids along way too fast due to politicians fixated on testing, testing, testing. It used to be that teachers had more flexibility to move at the pace that their students were at. Now, it's a very tight schedule, with very little room for a teacher to be creative or innovative, because they have to cram a whole bunch of required stuff into the kids' heads on a certain schedule. That's not teaching, and it sure isn't learning. But that is what is wrong with the one-size-fits-all approach politicians and others with an agenda create when they start screwing around with public education. My sister in law spends thousands of dollars out of pocket every year to give her students extras and enrich their education. And she is hardly the only teacher doing this. So please, let's back off the gross generalizations about "lazy tenured teachers" because while I'm sure they exist, they are far and away not the majority. Teachers aren't the problem.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>William, you can still fire a teacher who is in a tenured position. The school district just needs to show just cause for the termination.<<< It is extremely difficult. As I said, I have worked/volunteered in the school district for years. There are 2 teachers specifically from my kids' elementary school who, year after year, had nearly half of their class moved by parents who would hear what the teachers said to the kids and saw how they acted. And, year after year, the teachers stuck around. Parent would say they didn't want them for their kids moving up to their grade, still the school kept them. Teachers and parents would witness awful, cruel things these teachers said to certain kids, yet they were still there. One finally got moved to a different school in the district where many of the parents were spanish speaking only as well as low income, the other was FINALLY put on paid leave after basically calling a 6 year old fat in front of another teacher. The next school year she was teaching at a different school in the district. Waiting for Superman may be "thinly veiled propoganda", but their lemon shuffle rings frustratingly true. The teacher's union has the back of the good teachers, which I truly appreciate, but there still needs to be SOME sort of accountability for teachers.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And let;s be clear -- Scott Walker doesn't like unions because they are his political enemy. That's why he put a target on them, that's the only reason. He's the latest version of anti-union politico going back a hundred years.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney I want to add though, aside from my oldest having one of the two horrible teachers I mentioned (until I moved her a few weeks into the school year after hearing her repeatedly degrading the kids), and my youngest having one mediocre, slightly neurotic teacher, my kids have had everything from good to great to wonderful teachers willing to help in ways above and beyond what's expected. I am a big believer in public schools and the great education given by many spectacular teachers in the public school system.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox If you'd like to know more about what Chicago teachers are actually up against, read this: <a href="http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/09/15/at-rally-chicago-teachers-union-president-invites-city-hall-to-turn-off-air-conditioning/" target="_blank">http://dissenter.firedoglake.c...tioning/</a> <> At Rally, Chicago Teachers Union President Invites City Hall to Turn Off Air-Conditioning By: Kevin Gosztola Saturday September 15, 2012 11:23 pm In Union Park in Chicago thousands of educators and supporters of the Chicago Teachers Union gathered for a solidarity rally. People from out-of-state, like Minnesota and Wisconsin, were there to show support. After a two-hour rally, everyone marched to Garfield Park. There were students, parents and representatives from teachers unions, including the Illinois Federation of Teachers (of which CTU is an affiliate). The leader of the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) union in Chicago Pat Camden spoke in support congratulating the union for being out in the streets in overwhelming numbers the past week. A member of a charter school’s teachers union spoke about how the conditions of the workplace in charter schools were terrible and what teachers had to look forward to if they did not prevail. And a strike captain spoke about negotiations where teachers who were fired from schools being shut down to make way for private charter schools are being advocated for so they might be rehired at other schools. At the end of the rally, Karen Lewis, president of CTU, delivered a speech. She said she was tired and frustrated. She explained the negotiations had produced a framework for an agreement but no agreement, which means the strike is not over. If you read the news reports on the rally, this is what Lewis said. In addition to these nuggets, she spoke passionately about the love that teachers have for students and why the union is striking. She pleaded with those in City Hall to empathize with what teachers and students go through, and to understand teachers are the foundation, and teachers were not going to sit by and be destroyed because that’s not what’s good for children. She declared, “I want them to turn off the air conditioning in 125 S. Clark [Board of Education] and work like we work. I want them to turn off the air conditioning on the fifth floor of City Hall and let them work like we work. I want them to turn off the air conditioning at the Gates Foundation, the Broad Foundation and the Walton Foundation so they can see what our children have to suffer under. I want them to come sit in a classroom with peeling plaster and notebooks and I want them to be evaluated.” The former chemistry teacher went on to make clear this was not about dodging accountability. She said she wants to be evaluated so somebody can tell her how to be a better teacher. But then added, “While these people have their air conditioners turned off, I want them to not be able to go to the dentist when they have a toothache. I want them to not be able to go to a physician when they are feeling ill. I want them to understand what it means to be hungry, what it means to be homeless and what it means to be uncomfortable when you give me a test.” The issue of air conditioning is a real problem. Eighteen schools canceled classes this summer because it was too hot outside and they had no air-conditioning. Students were deprived learning opportunities because Chicago could not offer facilities comfortable and conducive to learning. Lewis continued, “I want to know why, when we ask for textbooks and materials on the first day,” that is considered unreasonable. And, “I want somebody to tell me why asking for more than 325 social workers for a system of 400,000 children is unreasonable.” On standardized testing, “I want you to tell me why you have to test my kindergarteners five and six times a year when they haven’t even learned how to play.” She said she was tired of people calling her a thug. She also said she was tired of people suggesting principals should have “complete freedom in organizing their schools.” Musician John Legend was on “Real Time w/ Bill Maher” last night and made this statement. Lewis noted principals have a four-year shelf life. So are teachers supposed to let their schools turn over every four years? And when the next school principal comes in with their ideas, after teachers have committed their time and love, now do what that the principal says because there’s a new principal in the school? How does this promote stability in schools? Lewis directly rebuked the idea of tying student test scores to teacher evaluations: “Evaluate me. Show me how I can get better. But don’t tell me some random, some test you pulled off of a shelf that a child sits down and bubbles in is going to tell you what I’ve done. It does not.” She added, “My father taught wood shop and drafting in Chicago public schools, my late father, God rest his soul. And I have his picture on my desk. My father always told me you have to use the right tool for the right job. We want the right instrument.” Holding up a piece of paper she said, “You see this piece of paper? You all see this? It represents the chart of the experience of the people who make policy about education. Here’s their experience. Here’s their chart. What’s on it? Nothing.” She led the crowd in a chant of the word “nothing.” Lewis said CTU did not start the fight. They had tried to work with the city. Collaboration is one thing that makes people work better, she suggested. When she works with her sister down the hall, she learns something and she also teaches her something new. “But if you’re going to introduce the market into my classroom, why would I help the sister down the street when I am trying to get something for me? That’s not education.” The president, whose union ignited resistance against the national agenda for education reform being pushed by corporations this past week, concluded by expressing gratitude. So far, this had been a “beautiful and democratic process with a small d.” She cautioned people. “A woman came up to me and said she got a text from her principal telling their faculty that they should report to work tomorrow and Monday to prepare their rooms.” Lewis, displaying a flabbergasted look said, “What I want to tell you is, we’re on strike!” It was a speech given by a woman with great humanity, one who does not serve any special interests. She does not have to obey the agenda of some ideological foundation that seeks to influence the business of education in Chicago. She can talk about what students and teachers experience in the classroom because she and other educators live it. They don’t just manage it and pretend to know what is causing children to struggle in the classroom. They are involved at every level of the learning process and deserve to be regarded as better experts than politicians, education reform foundation presidents, or even school administrators. <> The conditions that Chicago teachers and their students face is deplorable and reprehensible. I don't know what keeps these dedicated educators on the job, given school conditions and the surrounding abject poverty their students must battle every single day. And how the heck can one solitary social worker be expected to serve over 1,200 students? That is seriously screwed up. Chicago teachers do care about their kids. They've just finally reached the breaking point in dealing with politicians who don't. It's about time.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox And you simply refuse to address the very real consequences of what happens to teacher pay and benefits, not to mention the ability to eliminate teachers who aren't "politically palatable," if that union is eliminated. Go ahead, DD. Address it. What happens to those good paying salaries and benefits if the union is completely eliminated? And be sure to back up your statements with real world examples from Republican-run states with charter schools managed by for-profit corporations.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>And you simply refuse to address the very real consequences of what happens to teacher pay and benefits, not to mention the ability to eliminate teachers who aren't "politically palatable," if that union is eliminated.<< All you have to see is what has happened in the private sector, where unions have been all but eradicated. Pensions are practically non existent and 401K matches are vanishing. Paid time off has shriveled up. And pay raises? Not getting a raise, even when the company is enjoying record profits and you received a shining annual review, has become all too common. So I laugh when people say that unions aren't needed anymore.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 It shouldn't be about pay and benefits when you enter the teaching profession. It shouldn't be about time off in the summer, Christmas and Easter. It should be about the students. The teachers I know put their students first. They help during recess or bus duty. They work the lunch room. They coach. They tutor. That's why they got into the profession. The union says it should be about them and the students second. That's immorally wrong.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<It shouldn't be about pay and benefits when you enter the teaching profession.>> Take your holier-than-thou teaching-should-be-a-charity attitude and stick it. Five-plus years of college should command a respectable salary commensurate with other professions requiring advanced degrees. Teachers have the right to be compensated for the hard work and sacrifices they make. They shouldn't be treated like minimum wage manual labor. And that's precisely what Republican law makers are doing across the nation.
Originally Posted By TheRedhead I teach high school in a right to work state, so we don't have to belong to either of the two current unions. That basically means that, without any exaggeration, the unions combined have less power than my PTA. And there is no such thing as tenure in the county where I work. And you know what? We face the same problems in education that every other state faces. So how can we blame everything on the unions? I love this idea that it's the union's fault that a teacher can't be fired. Phooey. Even with neutered unions and no tenured teachers, firing a teacher in my county is about a 3 year process. I know of a teacher at my school who was basically caught embezzling red-handed, and yet he couldn't be fired. Instead, he was quietly moved to another school. But this is a silly conversation to have since it is hard to fire employees in most any large company. Before I taught, I worked on Wall Street. I had a guy who worked for me who turned out to be an incompetent mess. I went to my boss and said that we had to get rid of him. I'll never forget his reply: "OK. Then we start the process today. Document everything he does wrong, and make sure he's aware you've documented it. Understand though, that this process will last at least a year, and even then we might not be able to fire him." A year later he was still there, though after some restructuring he got shuffled off to another department where he wouldn't cause much harm. So this whole concept that if we JUST got rid of the unions we could somehow solve the education problem is idiotic. Education is a complex issue made up many moving parts - students, parents, teachers, union leaders, administrators, superintendents, local government, state government, Board of Ed, the White House. To point at ONE thing and say AHA, there is the root of all evil is not just overly-simplistic, it's dangerous. I don't have the strength to find the quote in this thread that bashes teachers, but it's a quote we've been hearing a lot lately anyway - why are teachers complaining? They get the summer off. They knew what they were getting into. We're all underpaid. Good grief. It's true that it has seemed like teachers have been complaining a lot lately. OK. Well let's couple that anecdotal data with some real data. The number of college students majoring in education has plummeted in the last 30 years. The percentage of teachers who quit before their 5th year (the year at which a teacher generally stays for life) keeps growing. People aren't just complaining about teaching. They're leaving teaching. They're avoiding teaching. Soon, there will be no good teachers to replace the ones we don't have. It is a serious problem. The truth is the career has changed drastically, and just about all of it has been negative. K2M's post about testing to death is spot on. And I went three years without any kind of raise. And my class size keeps growing. But the saddest thing is how teachers are now viewed as the enemy. Parents no longer come in willing to work with teachers. Instead, it is a battle, and I am the person standing in the way of their daughter's A+. I know teaching won't make me rich. I know working with teenagers will age me prematurely. But I have 10 years of teaching and a masters. Shouldn't I be viewed as a professional, you know, the way I was when I was on Wall Street with no training or background whatsoever? Instead, I'm a grade monkey. There are bad teachers, bad unions, bad parents, bad governors, bad principals, bad students, bad presidents. There are plenty that are good. To claim one bad group is the downfall of everything is to avoid ever tackling the problem.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 {applauds} And thank you for your service. (Not being sarcastic there in the slightest. We need teachers every bit as much as we need soldiers.)
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 Redhead, despite the views of some don't take my view as a slight of your profession. I have a deep respect for you guys. As I've said I have family and friends in it. What I will never understand is how they don't but kids first, again not most teachers but the union. Is there really any reason at all why the teachers in Chicago couldn't still be in classroom while negotiations are happening?
Originally Posted By TheRedhead If I were asked to teach in a building without air conditioning, I would go on strike, if only to protect my students. My county isn't nearly as bad as anything in Chicago, but I can't comprehend putting kids in harm's way like that. And if the only way to make the powers-that-be understand that what they're doing can physically harm children is by striking, then you strike. I'm fine if the union puts teachers first. It's their job. I'll protect the children. The union should protect me. I know we all flock to these stories of unions protecting horrible teachers who have sex with their students, and the teachers get paid while sitting for trial. It makes our blood boil. I know. I know a teacher who was wrongly accused of sexually assaulting a middle school girl. The girl later admitted that she made it up to get back at him for some imaginary slight. The man's reputation was ruined. The community was calling for his head on a platter. You should have seen the comments online. Some of the most vicious comments though were reserved for the union that had the nerve to say that judgement should be withheld until all the facts were in. DDMAN, I'm not accusing you of being a bad person. I feel the respect you have for teachers. I do. I appreciate what you just typed above too. But every time I hear you say that the unions don't put kids first, I always think of that guy whose life was ruined by a false accusation. The principal, the superintendent, the press, the community all put that girl first. I guess that's OK. But I have to know there's one group out there who will put me first.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>>If I were asked to teach in a building without air conditioning, I would go on strike, if only to protect my students. My county isn't nearly as bad as anything in Chicago, but I can't comprehend putting kids in harm's way like that.<<< I live in an area where it is currently in the high 90's most days, and has been since school started in mid-August (some 100's). My highschooler has a 5th period class where the A/C was broken the first 3+ weeks of school. I wish her teacher would have refused to teach in that hot room --- maybe the admin would have got their rear in gear and got it fixed sooner!
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<But every time I hear you say that the unions don't put kids first, I always think of that guy whose life was ruined by a false accusation>> And I don't disagree that the union should have stood up for that teacher. By all accounts he was a terrific teacher. But I've seen and heard stories, is they don't stand up enough for the good teachers. They protect the bad teachers more often and that in turn affects the students.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>they don't stand up enough for the good teachers<< But how can they stand up for the good teachers if they can't argue for better wages and benefits and so forth?
Originally Posted By fkurucz And just how do you measure a "good teacher"? Is a teacher with a classroom full of upper middle class students who get good grades a "better teacher" than one who teaches kids who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and who don't do well on standardized tests? Back in our Parochial school days we had a teacher who came from an inner city school and joined the staff. I remember him telling us what a joy it was to teach at St. John's because it was so much easier, simply because the caliber of students was so much higher.
