Originally Posted By gadzuux How can you know the truth and still be a republican? Seems mutually exclusive to me.
Originally Posted By oc_dean We are humans first. And hopefully with conscience. - And biased to partisan beliefs SECONDLY. Is that a naive way to look at ourselves?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <So Rick Davis is a liar, then.> Again, the most likely scenario is that he is mistaken.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <How can you know the truth and still be a republican?> It's really very easy.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Again, the most likely scenario is that he is mistaken." Your position is utterly laughable.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh And yet the only evidence that can be presented is a claim by one man written after the fact. There's not one testimony of someone who actually received one of these alleged push polls. I know, because I've taken the time to research this, rather than just swallow liberal spin.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Ahh, YOU know. YOU, who crossed into the no spin zone years ago. Get real.
Originally Posted By dshyates "An unidentified party began a semi-underground smear campaign against McCain, delivered by push polls, faxes, e-mails, flyers, audience plants, and the like.[13][52] These claimed most famously that he had fathered a black child out of wedlock (the McCains' dark-skinned daughter Bridget was adopted from Bangladesh; this misrepresentation was thought to be an especially effective slur in a Deep South state where race was still central[47]), but also that his wife Cindy was a drug addict, that he was a homosexual, and that he was a "Manchurian Candidate" traitor or mentally unstable from his North Vietnam POW days.[13][46] The Bush campaign strongly denied any involvement with these attacks;[46] Bush said he would fire anyone who ran defamatory push polls.[53] During a break in a debate, Bush put his hand on McCain's arm and reiterated that he had no involvement in the attacks; McCain replied, "Don't give me that shit. And take your hands off me."[45]" Wiki "During the 2000 Republican primary, a South Carolina push poll used racist innuendo intended to undermine the support of then-Bush rival John McCain: "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?" [36] The authors of the 2003 book and subsequent film Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential, [37] allege that Rove was involved. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the [Bush] campaign". McCain campaign manager Richard Davis said he "had no idea who had made those calls, who paid for them, or how many were made", and Rove has denied any such involvement. [38]" Wiki
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<So Rick Davis is a liar, then.>> <Again, the most likely scenario is that he is mistaken.> How in the world is that the "most likely" scenario? Davis was there, and he wrote that piece fully 4 years after it happened (giving the lie to your earlier laughable assertion that is was written "caught up emotion after losing a hard fought race.") It's only the "most likely" scenario in Dougworld. Occam's razor tells us the MOST likely scenario is that the people behind those push polls would be the people who stood to gain if McCain lost the SC primary. Which would be Bush's people.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <How in the world is that the "most likely" scenario?> For the reasons I've given. <Occam's razor tells us the MOST likely scenario is that the people behind those push polls would be the people who stood to gain if McCain lost the SC primary.> You're assuming the people doing the push polls actually said the things claimed. There's no evidence of that. Again, exit polls revealed most people in SC thought Pres Bush ran a cleaner campaign than Sen McCain. I doubt that would have been true if these slanders were as wide spread as some are now claiming.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "You're assuming the people doing the push polls actually said the things claimed. There's no evidence of that." Crapola. Are you saying they made it up out of thin air? Things like this just don't get fabricated and you know it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Again, exit polls revealed most people in SC thought Pres Bush ran a cleaner campaign than Sen McCain. I doubt that would have been true if these slanders were as wide spread as some are now claiming.<< LOL, you know, Bush WON the SC primary. So it makes sense people there would be forgiving of dirty tactics if it fit their world view. For your statement to be accurate, it would take people being able to completely step outside the political realm and make a totally unbiased judgement call. Not many people are that objective. Look at this election. What Obama supporters see as clearly negative ads McCain supporters see as fair play, and vice versa. I haven't seen one, not a single post, by a McCain supporter saying "I like McCain, but that ad went too far." (I have seen posts like that from Obama supporters, however, because Obama supporters are generally nicer people and more fair and tend to be snazzier dressers. That's just objective analysis. ; ) But when you have a Republican making that charge against a fellow Republican, a sitting president, by the way, 4 years after the fact, it's worth considering. Or, maybe Rick Davis is a sore loser. He's certainly not afraid of going nasty, he's been doing it in this campaign. Maybe he's a liar. Maybe I've been giving him too much credit.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Okay, imagine it's November 4, 2008 and you just voted for McCain. You're walking away from the polling place, and an exit survey asks "Who ran a more negative campaign, McCain or Obama?" Now, you just cast your vote for McCain. Your mind is on hoping and praying he'll win. Is the first thing you're going to do is say "Yeah, he was REALLY negative with his attacks on Obama." Doubtful. So the exit polls you refer to don't pass the basic smell test.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<How in the world is that the "most likely" scenario?>> <For the reasons I've given.> I just went back and looked. The only "reasons" you gave for that being "most likely" were in 92, in which you misstated what Occam's Razor is, and at the end of 95, which I refuted with facts (i.e. he wrote that piece 4 years later, not in the heat of the campaign). You'll have to do better than that if you don't want to fall back into self-parody territory. <<Occam's razor tells us the MOST likely scenario is that the people behind those push polls would be the people who stood to gain if McCain lost the SC primary.>> <You're assuming the people doing the push polls actually said the things claimed. There's no evidence of that. Again, exit polls revealed most people in SC thought Pres Bush ran a cleaner campaign than Sen McCain. I doubt that would have been true if these slanders were as wide spread as some are now claiming.> 2oony answered this very well. Bush won, and people rarely admit their guy's campaign was dirtier that the other guy's.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Are you saying they made it up out of thin air?> You know, I covered this a while back. This story is due to a conflagration of several events. One, a nut sent out an email, slandering Sen McCain. Two, a woman stood up at a McCain town meeting and complained that her son had received a push poll that criticized Sen McCain. Three, Pres Bush appeared at a rally with a veteran's advocate that disparaged Sen McCain, which he thought was a low blow. Pres Bush apologized for that appearance. It was a hard fought primary. There was dirt thrown by each side, some with the blessing of the campaigns, and some without. But there's simply no evidence that Karl Rove or anyone else in the Bush campaign orchestrated a far reaching "whisper campaign" that smeared Sen McCain. If there were, someone could produce, rather than just continually repeating that it happened.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan So Rick Davis is a liar. Or a really, really sore loser. Or imagining things.
