Originally Posted By mawnck >>What other functions of the state of California should we outsource to foreign countries? It's cheaper, right?<< Since our bonds are closing in on junk status anyway, probably as much as possible. That's why I don't expect anything to come of this prison thing ... we don't have the money to go building prisons in Mexico or anywhere else.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I'm the most anti-immigrant-bashing dude I know, and I think this one's legit >>> Same here, and same here.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I think the Mexicans will be sensitive to the fact that we're incarcerating their citizens and then sending them back to be locked up. Put the shoe on the other foot -- how many times have you seen outrage over U.S. citizens being tried and sentenced in foreign countries? It doens't matter how criminal the act, no one likes to see their citizens in a foreign court system. I don't think this plays well in the general population of Mexico." I don't know if you're missing the overall point here, or if you don't want to see it, or some combination, or something different. California's budget situation is THE most divisive issue in the state along with illegal aliens. 1 and 1A. The strain that illegals put on the state budget and local budgets can no longer be ignored by any side. Left, right, middle, sideways, no one. I won't go as far as some and say if you shipped them all back where they came from the state's problems would be solved, but there's no denying the impact. I see it every day in my job. We pay out welfare for the anchor babies and not the mother, because she's illegal. So, when Schwarzeneggers stumbles upon an idea, any idea, that might have some merit, it has to be considered.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << The strain that illegals put on the state budget and local budgets can no longer be ignored by any side. >> Illegals are a scapegoat for the broader budget issues. They are not the biggest contributor to the state's budget woes.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>There are roughly 19,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons, representing 11% of all inmates. That's costing $970 million during the current fiscal year [2009]. The feds kick in a measly $111 million, leaving the state with an $859 million tab.<< >>If you figure that the children of illegal immigrants attending K-12 schools approximates the proportion of illegal immigrants in the population, the bill currently comes to roughly $4 billion. Most is state money; some local property taxes.<< >>Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to welfare, called CalWORKs. But their citizen children are. Roughly 190,000 kids are receiving welfare checks that pass through their parents. The cost: about $500 million, according to the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst's Office.<< >>The state is spending $775 million on Medi-Cal healthcare for illegal immigrants, according to the legislative analyst. Of that, $642 million goes into direct benefits. Practically all the rest is paid to counties to administer the program. The feds generally match the state dollar-for-dollar on mandatory programs. So-called emergency services are the biggest state cost: $536 million. Prenatal care is $59 million. Not counted in the overall total is the cost of baby delivery -- $108 million -- because the newborns aren't illegal immigrants. The state also pays $47 million for programs that Washington does not require: Non-emergency care (breast and cervical cancer treatment), $25 million; long-term nursing home care, $19 million; abortions, $3 million.<< >>Add them all up and the state spends well over $5 billion a year on illegal immigrants and their families.<< >>California should be honest about the costs. Illegal immigrants are not the sole cause of the state's deficit. But they are a drain.<< <a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/02/local/me-cap2" target="_blank">http://articles.latimes.com/20.../me-cap2</a>
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ Can you post an article that lists the tax contributions of illegals? Sales tax, property tax, licenses, etc. It's easy to tally up the expenses, but meaningless unless you show the actual revenue shortfall. Contrarty to popular believe, illegals do contribute to the tax base. They pay local sales taxes just like the rest of us. They have to live somewhere and somebody is paying taxes on that property. Additionally, they provide inexpensive labor for businesses so those businesses can book higher profits -- and pay more taxes. I'm not saying there is no burden, but you have to tally up the revenues as well as the expenditures to really understand the magnitude of the problem. No one ever does that.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< >>There are roughly 19,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons, representing 11% of all inmates. That's costing $970 million during the current fiscal year [2009]. The feds kick in a measly $111 million, leaving the state with an $859 million tab.<< >>> This is the only set of figures that should matter with respect to the prison issue. All of the others are irrelevant noise, and will tend to bring in the larger issues of immigration into what is a quite narrow issue. Where to house illegals in state prison should be a rather uncontroversial issue, as most of the issues that cause strife with the broader immigration issue are not at play: these inmates will never be released back into American society, will never live with their families again (unless the families move to Mexico after they're released), and will never be a part of the work force or the tax base. Bringing up all of the broader issues will only confuse the matter.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Illegals are a scapegoat for the broader budget issues. They are not the biggest contributor to the state's budget woes." I sure hope you're not putting words in my mouth. I said their impact can no longer be ignored.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Nor can they be used to distract from the larger issues that are being ignored.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I'm not saying there is no burden, but you have to tally up the revenues as well as the expenditures to really understand the magnitude of the problem. No one ever does that." Because it doesn't work out in their favor?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Because it doesn't work out in their favor? >> I've actually seen this done before, and it turns out that California citizens have a bigger gap per capita in terms of revenue collected vs. services received than illegal aliens. It's easier to scapegoat, though.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Contrarty to popular believe, illegals do contribute to the tax base. They pay local sales taxes just like the rest of us. << The article I linked to did: >>Of course, illegal immigrants do pay state taxes. But no way do they pay enough to replenish what they're drawing in services. Their main revenue contribution would be the sales tax, but they can't afford to be big consumers, and food and prescription drugs are exempt.<<
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Nor can they be used to distract from the larger issues that are being ignored." My God man, FOCUS. They are a HUGE issue in this state right now, but no one has EVER said they are the MAIN reason for the state's problems. But again, they can no longer be ignored. Whoever is running this state HAS to address the issue going forward. The article mawnck posted is a good illustration of the areas they affect. Moreover, damn few of them own homes wherein the property tax they pay offsets other costs they incur. Damn few of them are paid legitimately, so they can pay their fair share of income tax deductions, as opposed to merely sales taxes. And far too many of them are taking labor related job such as in construction that legal citizens could have.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "It's easier to scapegoat, though." Talk about making a distraction.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Damn few of them are paid legitimately, so they can pay their fair share of income tax deductions, as opposed to merely sales taxes. >> How many do you think make a high enough household income to even pay significant taxes? Answer: very few
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "How many do you think make a high enough household income to even pay significant taxes? Answer: very few" You're the one who said they own homes and pay property taxes, not me. You're making my argument now.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << And far too many of them are taking labor related job such as in construction that legal citizens could have. >> That's quite an issue right now since construction jobs have dropped off a cliff. And why isn't it ever the employers fault for hiring cheap labor instead of doing the right thing?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << You're the one who said they own homes and pay property taxes, not me. You're making my argument now. >> Property taxes are not the same as income taxes. Property taxes catch everyone that lives somewhere -- even renters indirectly. A large portion of the population is exempt from income taxes.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You're the one who said they own homes and pay property taxes, not me. You're making my argument now.*** He didn't say that. He said they LIVE in homes who's owners pay taxes. Which is entirely true.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Speaking specifically of those that would be covered by the Gov's suggestion, I must once again point out that: NONE of them are paying any taxes, since they are in prison. And, since at the end of their sentences, they will be deported to Mexico and refused future entry into the US, none of these people ever will be taxpayers in the future.
