Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder X: ***You're the one who said they own homes and pay property taxes, not me. You're making my argument now.*** He didn't say that. He said they LIVE in homes who's owners pay taxes. Sport Goofy said: "Can you post an article that lists the tax contributions of illegals? Sales tax, property tax, licenses, etc. It's easy to tally up the expenses, but meaningless unless you show the actual revenue shortfall" Sure looks like he's saying illegals pay property taxes to me.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ Yes, illegals contribute to property taxes -- either directly through property ownership or indirectly through rent paid to property owners. I don't think I could be anymore clear. Unless they are living under a highway underpass (and I acknowledge some of them are), there is a tax contribution by illegals for the use of property.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Which leads to another unproveable assertion- that enough property owners are willing to rent to illegals so that it makes a difference in how much their rent translates in tax.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<And why isn't it ever the employers fault for hiring cheap labor instead of doing the right thing?>> This is an interesting point, and one we don't hear enough. Why aren't there more crackdowns on companies hiring illegals? American companies and citizens are paying these people and giving them reasons to come here. If we didn't do that, how many would keep coming?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "That's quite an issue right now since construction jobs have dropped off a cliff. And why isn't it ever the employers fault for hiring cheap labor instead of doing the right thing?" Any construction job going to an illegal right now as opposed to a legal citizen is a crime. Plus, you find the first employer willing to hire only legals and still have the lowest job bid and I'll show you a guy who is losing money on the job. It's a vicious cycle, and blaming the employer takes away from the bigger issue that the illegal is even there to start with.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Plus, you find the first employer willing to hire only legals and still have the lowest job bid and I'll show you a guy who is losing money on the job. >> Are you kidding me? Developers and construction companies were making money hand over fist during the housing boom. I know some of those developers and contractors. The money they were throwing around on lavish homes, vacations, and other luxuries was obscene. Don't give me a load of crap about how they would be losing money if they hired U.S. citizens. They would probably give up the new Escalade that showed up in the driveway every year -- what a sacrifice.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<It's a vicious cycle, and blaming the employer takes away from the bigger issue that the illegal is even there to start with.>> But like I said, would they actually even come here if they couldn't earn any money here? I realize that jobs aren't the only reason they come here, but stopping those jobs from going to illegals would certainly help.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << But like I said, would they actually even come here if they couldn't earn any money here? >> Exactly. Illegal immigration fell dramatically in 2009 because of our bad economy -- essentially all of the Mexicans here told their family in friends in Mexico to stay at home.
Originally Posted By SuperDry The last few posts are a fascinating discussion of the two sides of the "how does illegal immigration affect the economy overall?" question. But that's not the question to be asked as far as the prison question is concerned.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<But that's not the question to be asked as far as the prison question is concerned.>> To address that issue directly, while I don't think it's fair that the American taxpayer has to pay to keep illegal immigrant criminals in prisons in the US, I really don't like the idea of sending them back to Mexican jails. Even if we were to build the jails there, we have no idea if these people would be treated humanely, and that's an issue for me.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Rather than create strawmen, Sport Goofy, please answer a question that is also related to the prison issue-do you agree or not that illegals are an issue that need to be dealt with in California?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I already answered that question, but you don't like the answer. Deal with the illegals issue by dealing with the root causes of the problem, not masking the symptoms.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I already answered that question, but you don't like the answer. Deal with the illegals issue by dealing with the root causes of the problem, not masking the symptoms." Don't think you have answered it, because I'm going to have to conclude you can't grasp the more immediate issue at hand. California's budget situation is historically bad. The state doesn't have the luxury of systematically solving a problem that as regulations now stand, has been consistently called a federal issue. No matter what their feelings are on illegals, there isn't a resident of this state who hasn't seen the fiscal impact they have on public resources. And just to be clear, since you seem to insist on painting it this way, no one is saying addressing illegals is a panacea. I AM saying it's a start. And, to use your words, the state HAS to address the symptoms as opposed to the root cause, because as I said earlier, so far, only the feds have the authority to go to the root of it. So, if helping Mexico build prisons is a realistic way of tackling one of those symptoms, it should be explored. Based on my professional experience, I think we should not dole out welfare to illegals whose babies are born here. Harsh, to be sure, but it might help stop the influx we see.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I already answered that question, but you don't like the answer. Deal with the illegals issue by dealing with the root causes of the problem, not masking the symptoms. >>> I agree with you in general. I think most of the immigration proposals don't deal with the root problem, and are reactionary at best. However, on this particular proposal, I think it's a good idea. Virtually all of the arguments against the other proposals don't apply here.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Sport Goofy, let's approach this another way. What is the benefit of keeping these people in California prisons?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ I think that was my initial approach. Let's figure out how to get sentences reduced for all California prisoners -- specifically those serving for non-violent crimes, drug offenses, 3-strikes violations. But I also might take a different approach -- if the prisoners are illegal, just deport them. Why should we worry about their future incarceration as long as we get them outside of our borders? That will be far cheaper than building prisons in Mexico.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Why should we worry about their future incarceration as long as we get them outside of our borders?<< It doesn't work unless you deport them to a different hemisphere.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ The reason it doesn't work is because we don't have a sound immigration policy in this country to begin with. Until you fix the root causes, none of the band-aids will amount to anything.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The reason it doesn't work is because we don't have a sound immigration policy in this country to begin with.<< The reason it doesn't work is we have this big lonnnng border with Mexico. If you think we can afford to police the whole thing, you're nuts. If you think a gigantic wall is going to do it, f'git that too. They have ladders. And shovels. And airplanes. What are you proposing here anyway? Making them citizens? That fixes the budget situation how?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<What are you proposing here anyway? Making them citizens? That fixes the budget situation how?>> I don't know about SG, but here's my solution: go after businesses, big and small, who hire undocumented workers. Resources exist to check SSN validity. Use it. Too lazy? Tough. All employers, even those who hire only one or two workers at a time, should be subject to steep fines in the tens of thousands per employee, if they're caught hiring undocumented workers. Businesses want undocumented workers to underpay and abuse like slaves. These workers don't get even minimum wage, they work more than 40 hours without overtime, no benefits, no sick days, nothing. And they cannot report the abuses because they're here illegally. Employers want undocumented workers in their businesses because it's cheap labor. That's all they care about. It ruins our economy, no taxes are collected, jobs are lost for our citizens, but these Simon Legree types simply do not care. It's all about them, and to hell with everyone else. Of course, most business leaders and employers in this country donate heavily to the RNC, to make sure something like this never becomes law. They want a steady stream of cheap illegal labor to boost their profits. Don't buy their anti-immigration hype. It's all smoke-n-mirrors to buy votes from the low information voters. Fine these guys, big time. Make them terrified to hire an undocumented worker ever again. Ten thousand dollar fine per each undocumented worker, minimum. Twenty thousand would be better. Use the money collected from the fines to beef up ICE to patrol the employers. Then this problem basically goes away.
