Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << What are you proposing here anyway? Making them citizens? That fixes the budget situation how? >> How about we enforce labor laws so that there isn't work available? Either that, or let's just go back to slavery and treat these people as property for business owners -- after all, that's really what's going on here. Illegals workers are just another form of slavery that we've adapted to in the wreckless pursuit of the almight dollar.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I don't know about SG, but here's my solution: go after businesses, big and small, who hire undocumented workers.<< >>How about we enforce labor laws so that there isn't work available?<< Already being done as good as it's going to get done. And probably gets a lot worse now with the budget thing. A nice solution, but not a practical one.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Already being done as good as it's going to get done.>> NO WAY! WRONG! WRONG!! WRONG!!! That is Republican mythology at its worst! Very little is done to go after employers who hire undocumented workers. ICE does not have the resources necessary for this. And during those rare times when employers are actually caught hiring them, they basically get a slap on the wrist. This country does NOT police employers nearly enough to stop this labor abuse. ICE needs at least 20 times the funds it currently receives to prevent these hiring practices. And employers should be paying fines of at least $10K per undocumented worker when caught. Don't try to tell me that what's being done currently is as good as it can get. That's a bunch of GOP crap. The business leaders of this country WANT undocumented labor to exist and exploit, which is why they pay millions in lobbyist dollars to our elected officials to keep the status quo. They desperately want illegal labor, and have gone the extra mile to keep it. Quit listening to the GOP talking points a la Lou Dobbs. We're not doing much of anything to lessen the business addiction to cheap illegal labor.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>ICE needs at least 20 times the funds it currently receives to prevent these hiring practices.<< Precisely. "As good as it can get" includes budgetary restrictions, unless you want to dip into the magic bag and pull out some more nonexistent money. Or more to the point, get Congress to do it.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox You don't have to "dip into the magic bag," mawnck. Use stimulus money for hiring more workers into ICE, and at the same time, radically increase the fines for each undocumented worker caught. Then take those fines and pump them back into ICE to police the employers. If employers knew they risked losing $20K per undocumented worker, they'd stop hiring them because of the risk. And if they decided to risk it anyway, it would only take getting caught once to stop the practice. If Congress really wanted to put an end to undocumented workers in this country, they could do this simple first step of imposing heavy fines. But they're proudly serving their corporate masters, and can't be bothered with protecting jobs for the citizens who deserve them.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< >>Why should we worry about their future incarceration as long as we get them outside of our borders?<< It doesn't work unless you deport them to a different hemisphere. >>> Immediate deportation isn't the answer, even if we had a perfectly-controlled border, because it would remove a big disincentive to commit crime. Kill someone? If you're a citizen, then the penalty is up to life in prison, or possibly the death penalty. Or, if you're an illegal alien, the penalty is deportation? Same for bank robbery? Rape? Child molestation? You think crime is bad now? Try removing prison sentences as a penalty for serious crime and see what happens.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << You think crime is bad now? Try removing prison sentences as a penalty for serious crime and see what happens. >> Or you could reduce sentences. How about instead of life, have a criminal serve 10 years and then deport them? Except in extreme cases, 10 years in prison would have a sobering impact on someone who would plan to commit further crimes. Incarceration saps the energy out of people. How many prisoners would that reduce in the population?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox You cannot have it both ways, mawnck. Either hire more ICE workers, or open our borders completely. If the stimulus is going to happen anyway, use some of the funds to hire more ICE agents. Use those agents to police employers hiring undocumented workers. Heavily fine those employers and put those fines back into ICE to hire even more agents. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Once the fines start coming in, you hire ICE agents with those fines. The stimulus is just to get the ball rolling. Hire more ICE agents. Heavily fine employers who hire undocumented workers. Win-win.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>You cannot have it both ways, mawnck.<< You can't have it either way. From a fiscally responsible standpoint, you can only have it exactly the way we have it now: Limited enforcement, relatively porous border. And build some prisons in Mexico to house the convict undocumenteds. I still think it sounds like a good idea.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<From a fiscally responsible standpoint, you can only have it exactly the way we have it now: Limited enforcement, relatively porous border.>> Nope. There is room for improvement. Threaten employers with severe fines, the kind that would cripple their bottom lines, making the hiring of undocumented workers unpalatable. If caught, they won't risk illegal workers again. And simply knowing another employer who was caught and fined out the wazoo will make you think twice about putting undocumented workers in your labor force. Our country needs jobs, period. Outsourcing of service sector and technical jobs continues, and will only stop with tax incentives to keep jobs here. Obama endorsed such a move in last night's SOTU, but I'm not holding my breath for Congress to actually pass it. Force employers to do the right thing. Threaten them with massively painful fines if they're caught hiring undocumented workers. PERIOD. Use those fines to hire ICE agents to police the employers. It's not fiscally irresponsible to do this. Without jobs for citizens, our country will continue to suffer. And decent jobs are still going to undocumented workers. Force employers to OBEY THE LAW and hire workers who can legally hold the jobs and pay them at least minimum wage, collect taxes, the whole shebang. Letting employers continue to skate by on the undocumented worker issue is too costly for our economy. Time for these employers to do the patriotic thing and hire legal labor!
Originally Posted By queenbee Skinner, I agree with you in theory but where I live, big business has already figured out a work around. They hire laborers from a labor contractor. The contractor is the actual employer of the undocumented workers and takes all the risk. The contractor is usually one person with a cell phone and stack of business cards. If they are a big time operation, they may even have a porta-john and a used, barely road worthy, bus. The government can levy fines to the sky but they'll never be paid.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << The government can levy fines to the sky but they'll never be paid. >> Income tax withholding.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< << You think crime is bad now? Try removing prison sentences as a penalty for serious crime and see what happens. >> Or you could reduce sentences. How about instead of life, have a criminal serve 10 years and then deport them? Except in extreme cases, 10 years in prison would have a sobering impact on someone who would plan to commit further crimes. Incarceration saps the energy out of people. How many prisoners would that reduce in the population? >>> If you are talking about across-the-board reductions of prison sentences, that's one thing. Although, I don't think you'll get much traction for a generalized dramatic reduction in sentences. But to say that someone should get a substantially reduced sentence just because they're an illegal alien so that we can save money, I don't think that's right at all. Since you don't seem to have any problem with reducing prison sentences just for aliens in order to reduce costs, why do you have a problem with keeping the sentences the same but having them serve them in Mexico to reduce costs?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << why do you have a problem with keeping the sentences the same but having them serve them in Mexico to reduce costs? >> I've already mentioned that I am fundamentally opposed to outsourcing the functions of our government to a foreign government.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I've already mentioned that I am fundamentally opposed to outsourcing the functions of our government to a foreign government.<< Repeating: It would not be outsourced to a foreign government. CALIFORNIA jails in Mexico. Built by California, run by California using local labor. Don't go all DAR on us here.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I've already mentioned that I am fundamentally opposed to outsourcing the functions of our government to a foreign government." Even if this was an accurate assessment, so what? It's THEIR citizens coming over and doing the crime. Let THEM handle them doing the time.
Originally Posted By queenbee What income, Sport Goofy? The minute they get caught, they get a new business name, a new cell phone number, and repaint the bus with the new logo. I even seen the business owner get themselves a new name or even better use the name of a family member, and start all over.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<The minute they get caught, they get a new business name, a new cell phone number, and repaint the bus with the new logo. I even seen the business owner get themselves a new name or even better use the name of a family member, and start all over.>> Then the second time they get caught, throw them in jail. First time, heavy fines for every undocumented worker. Second time, jail time. This can be done, if the government wants to do it. Problem is, the Republicans and Blue Dogs represent business interests over citizen interests, and business WANTS illegal cheap labor, no matter how many laws they have to break to get it, no matter how many members of Congress they have to bribe/back to get it.
