Originally Posted By LindsayC and some people are more intrigued by a different way of seeing things than straight forward conventional thinking. Go figure.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I remember someone long ago saying DCA was as good as TDS. After seing these and other photos of the park... "You've got to be kidding!">> <<Some people appreciate Mediocrity over excelence. Go figure.>> Digs at me I guess. It is all a matter of opinion. I don't like being force-fed a narrative. I genuinely enjoy my DCA experiences to those of TDS. But then I have enjoyed both on numerous occasions.
Originally Posted By leemac ...including both from Saturday. I would never describe any Disney park as mediocre. They all have something to offer, even the Studios in Paris has some awesome attractions like the stunt show and the truly wonderful Cinemagique.
Originally Posted By mstaft leemac, no digs at you and certainly not personal. Should have clarified my statement as "Just based on visuals, detail, and the excellent scope and execution of attractions, when you compare it to DCA, I just cannot see them as equal." Sorry if I offended you. Not my intent. I enjoy DCA as well, but also see what it should have been- and I guess I'm jealous I haven't been to TDS...yet!
Originally Posted By leemac Hi mstaft No need to apologise at all! I've been defending my stance on DCA since Day 1, and it becomes a matter of habit! I don't take anything personally on here! We are back off to Tokyo next week, so hopefully we will have a comprehensive update from the parks in mid- to late October.
Originally Posted By Park Hopper Leemac, my comment was not aimed at you. I simply find people who prefer DCA to TDS baffeling. Perhaps you could do your comprehensive update from the perspective of someone who finds TDS lacking. It would certainly be different from the ususal photo essays we see on the place. And it might help some of us understand your point of view a little better.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>I've been defending my stance on DCA since Day 1<< I hear what you are saying Leemac, and in a sense, I have done so as well because I have always said that I enjoyed DCA's overall qualitites for what they are. There is some good to be found at DCA.
Originally Posted By leemac No worries, Park Hopper. I have an immensely thick skin and never take postings personally. That sounds like a good idea. It is actually the complete opposite that is the case. I find TDS to be so overthemed and overimagineered that the place leaves little to the imagination. For example, the MiraCosta hotel is simply a hodge-podge of Italian buildings. Layer on tonnes of marble and that's it. It is still a nice hotel, but lacks the Disney imagination of say, the Ambassador or the two best Disney hotels, Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge and Disney's Grand Californian. I believe DCA is a fun park and what is there, is pretty good to excellent in my book. There is just something about the atmosphere that just touches me. TDS is a little too serious and over-the-top for my liking. I still enjoy my visits there, but it doesn't have the compelling draw for me. The problem is that SoCal-ers believe that they were owed a better park. It is much easier to complain about it, as these boards testify! Personally, I enjoy what Barry Braverman tried to do with the park.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^Too bad many others don't and voting with their wallets. (Sorry, an unfair jab, but who said I was ever fair ).
Originally Posted By leemac ^^ Not me that's for sure. Building parks is about fiscal responsibility. Disney failed that hurdle with both EPCOT and Paris. That cost those parks' years of heartache and underfunding. OLC has done exactly the same with TDS, which is why they have been struggling to maintain attendance since Year 1 finished. The problem with that park is that beyond a ridiculously overpriced ToT and the mini-coaster, there is nothing else that they can do with the park. It is finished. That is a very sad state of affairs, and one that will hit them in their pocketbooks. That has already been seen in the stores at TDS which have increasingly stocked more TDL/TDR merchandise as the years have gone on. It isn't just TDS by any means, it seems that all four resorts have suffered with their second gates. Expectations run high when you are the baby brother to a Magic Kingdom. However, TDS ain't no baby brother, it is a boorish clone based firmly on the theming of its sibling. DLR were far more sensible with what they wanted from a second gate and resort destrict. Out of the development, we got a vibrant dining and retail complex, the greatest Disney hotel in the world, the redevelopment of the older hotels and a second park. All for 50% of what OLC dumped on TDS and the MiraCosta. DCA will grow and improve with time, much as Disney Studios in Florida have. I'd prefer to have a smaller park on opening and enjoy it coming of age. DAK is the ideal model for a new park. Give guests a reason to return, that isn't just entertainment changes or even worse, a hodge-podge of old entertainment (as OLC seem to prefer these days). Anyhow, sermon over
Originally Posted By Park Hopper Hey, Leemac, I know this isn't the proper forum for this question but do you like the DCA of today better then The DCA of February 2001?
Originally Posted By mstaft You know, as someone who rarely gets to visit a Disney park, I would be thrilled to be "overimagineered" at DCA! Even better to have TDS closeby...
Originally Posted By irishfan Leemac,I have to say you made some really good points about both TDS and the Disneyland Resort, many of which I share. I had a lot of fun at both parks, and enjoyed each on their own merits. Like you said though, is there any room for further expansion at TDS once Tower and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Peril (Mark II) open?
Originally Posted By leemac Hey Park Hopper That is a tough question. I'm not sure I can say either way. A lot of my love for DCA comes from a combination of DCa and the Grand. I love what they did to the Tower and find it equally as enjoyable as MGM's, but with a better ride. It is funny how I have never found the fifth dimension room to be of particular significance as it is so obvious that the drop is next, the surprise element just disappears. That first drop at DCA still spooks me! I would still love to have a lagoon show. Again, I was one of the few that actually enjoyed LuminAria immensely and wish that they had developed it further rather than scrapping it. Plus I am excited about the rumours for the land encompassing Mulholland Madness (an attraction I have never cared for, it just makes me ill. mstaft, it is all about what you want from a Disney park. I don't enjoy being force-fed a concept by anyone and TDS simply tries too hard. DCA allows you explore in a much freer environment. The narrative allows for interpretation. irishfan, in terms of land, there is little room for substantial expansion. From a WDI POV, there is nothing on the plans beyond ToT. There has been talk that the Sinbad attraction was designed with only a 10 year lifespan (and that show building is huge). If you ever see an aerial shot of the park, you would be amazed as to how TDL/TDS buttress one another so closely. The firm emphasis will be on TDL for the next decade anyhow. WDI have plenty of proposed projects to refit Tomorrowland, which will be very costly.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^^^Leemac, it's a fair argument and while I won't try to convince that TDS is a superior park and all (which I know you think is just ludicrous ), I just feel you give DCA TOO much credit. Don't get me wrong, I know just out and out dismissing the park is just as equally misleading, but there were so many blunders, mistakes and just a whole cheap feel to it. I actually agree with some of the things you mentioned, but the idea that Disney was trying to be minimal is some odd postmodern fashion in their building is just another way of saying they didn't want to cough up the coin to build a full fledged park. I agree, they don't have to hit you over the head with this stuff like TDS does (which I LOVE), but it's a cop-out to say that the power-lines and outside views are there to give you "a sense of realism of actually being in California. Give me a break!!!!! Cheap, cheap, cheap!!
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^^Oh in that last paragraph, I wasn't trying to imply YOU said it, but that Disney themselves basically justify their lack of effort for cop-out reasons such as this.
Originally Posted By leemac WorldDisney, it is all a matter of opinion. However, I have never suggested that DCA is minimal whatsoever and do not for a second believe that to be true. Sightlines are something they can do nothing about and anyhow, TDS suffers from that in much the same way, seeing the nasty industrial side of Tokyo Bay from all around the American Waterfront. Sadly, my argument will take a long time to pan out. TDS opened virtually complete and has little scope for development and growth. DCA still has room to grow and that is what I prefer. I love DAK, as nearly every visit yields something unique and new. I don't even like the attraction mix at TDS. Journey is nothing but a Test Track clone with no storyline and a short ride. Indy is inferior to its DL original. 20k Leagues is just plain average. What else is there left? Sinbad is a gem, but missed by most guests, Aladdin is a very average 3D movie. The rest are carnival rides. The only saving grace is some pretty good entertainment, like Sail Away & Mystic Rhythms (Encore! is just about the most boring show I have ever seen and lacks any Disney thought or imagination). Both parks have their flaws, but that is what makes them more interesting IMO. I despise TDS for not allowing any personal interpretation or injecting any humour or whimsy into the proceedings. It just takes itself too seriously and I think that rubs off on guests. I just don't feel comfortable in the park. I find TDL to be far superior. To call DCA "cheap" is an easy remark to make. However, I would rather ride/see Soarin', Screamin', ToT and Aladdin than the top 4 attractions at TDS.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Disney themselves basically justify their lack of effort for cop-out reasons such as this.>> You would have to dig out quotes for me to accept this, as I have never heard anyone at the Company accept criticism of the resort.
Originally Posted By leemac <<The rest are carnival rides.>> I know what the next retort would be to this! Anyhow, I've argued this since TDS opened and it would take a lot for me to be convinced that OLC made a wise choice with this park. In fact, I think this the first time in AGES that I've tried to defend DCA on LP (maybe you guys in the TDR section are a little more receptive to my comments than the Expansion posters!!). Anyhow, I can't wait to be in both Anaheim and Maihama from Saturday (although of crouse, not both at the same time, that would be impossible!!). I am particularly excited about seeing my first TDL Halloween!
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<WorldDisney, it is all a matter of opinion. However, I have never suggested that DCA is minimal whatsoever and do not for a second believe that to be true. Sightlines are something they can do nothing about and anyhow, TDS suffers from that in much the same way, seeing the nasty industrial side of Tokyo Bay from all around the American Waterfront.>> First off Leemac, I never suggested YOU said DCA was minimal, it's just my own intepretation of how Disney built the park. If you thought I implided you, my apologies. I agree, it is all a matter of opinion and the opinion seems to hold for the majority that TDS is a worthy park (better than TDL, probably not), but a superior park nevertheless. We ALL know where the opinions fall with DCA, but public opinion has never fallen as favorable in the majority (least nowhere I know). Sure, I certainly admit power lines can't be helped and yes TDS has SOME problems with this themseleves. The difference is TDS IS minimum with this issue while DCA put little next-to-nothing covering up all the bad sightline problems. It's hard for me to believe that they couldn't find SOME icon to cover the ugly convention center. Again though, what EXTREMELY lacks in DCA is the ability of what's there to draw you IN to the park, which DL and TDS does very well. Also, at TDS, when I am in Mysterious Island.....I am in Mysterious Island. DCA doesn't have that same achievement because the outside world intrudes TOO much a lot of the time and the fact a lot of the theming is so minimal, you never feel you are in a completely different place anywhere. No, I take that back, the Wharf area does this very well, but then there's NOTHING there to keep you more than 10 minutes. <<Sadly, my argument will take a long time to pan out. TDS opened virtually complete and has little scope for development and growth. DCA still has room to grow and that is what I prefer. I love DAK, as nearly every visit yields something unique and new.>> Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said. TDS is feels VERY complete, good now but who knows 10 years from now. DCA though, that's a different answer. Yes, it HAS potential to grow, but what they've done so far with all the cheap quick-fixes and lack of any real effort has SUFFERED for it IMO. That's actually the problem I have with DCA NOW!! Someone asked you if you like DCA when it first opened or DCA now? For me, it's easy, when it first opened believe it or not. It's only after watching 3 years of changing it to Disneyland 2.0 that my feelings for the park changed greatly. I don't want to see MSEP in DCA, doesn't fit, doesn't belong (but my mother LOVES it though ). So yeah, it will "grow", but for the better, that's a question that will need more time. But, TOT was a no-brainer and the ONLY reason why I might go back next year. BTW, I LOVE AK too. Again, it's a "walking" park. The beauty and the themeing is first, the rides are second in my book. I feel the exact same way about TDS. I don't have to ride a single ride anymore and felt I got my money's worth. So, I think it's fair to say we are OPPOSITE ends of this thought . Actually I love ALL the parks......except DCA, go figure. <<I don't even like the attraction mix at TDS. Journey is nothing but a Test Track clone with no storyline and a short ride. Indy is inferior to its DL original. 20k Leagues is just plain average. What else is there left? Sinbad is a gem, but missed by most guests, Aladdin is a very average 3D movie. The rest are carnival rides.>> Yeah, I think the ride mix at TDS is fine, but I definitely see your point. But, when it's all said and done, TDS put out 5 E-tickets opening day. DCA can barely count 2 on it's opening day. Also, like it or not, TDS actually has attractions for EVERYBODY: Families, teens, kids, etc. 80% of the attractions at TDS can be ridden by anyone. Only Indy and Journey are off limits to some. Can I say the same about DCA, no. That's WHY there is such a lack of interest in the park. Teens find the "thrill rides" too tame. Pre-FFF, children had about 4 rides they could ride. Now they have 5 additional ones that hopefully won't put them to sleep before the 30 seconds are up . My MOTHER can litterally ride one ride there: SSL (technically she could ride Soarin, but the height scared her--and she LIKES DCA while the rest of the family loathes it, go figure). The rest she can do, guess what: MOVIES!!!!! How lame can it get. The fact that TDS only has ONE film to fill up it's attraction roster (while mostly imported from WDW at DCA at that) speaks volumes of what it attraction roster offers versus DCA. <<The only saving grace is some pretty good entertainment, like Sail Away & Mystic Rhythms (Encore! is just about the most boring show I have ever seen and lacks any Disney thought or imagination).>> Yeah, I agree about Encore. My testing barometer on how good a show is is my girlfriend lol. She isn't a Disney fan by any sense of the word. She's Japanese, been to TDL ONCE when she was a child and couldn't understand why anyone over the age of 11 or without kids would waste their time? Anyway, she ALWAYS falls asleep at the shows, to her they are ALL too Disney for her taste and falls asleep. If she stays awake, it's a GOOD show . She fell asleep TWICE on Encore AND Mystic Rythems (but I LOVE Mystic Rythems). Sail Away and the Mermaid show---WIDE awake everytime. So, there you go . <<Both parks have their flaws, but that is what makes them more interesting IMO. I despise TDS for not allowing any personal interpretation or injecting any humour or whimsy into the proceedings. It just takes itself too seriously and I think that rubs off on guests. I just don't feel comfortable in the park. I find TDL to be far superior.>> Can't disagree, it strictly personal taste. DCA is a FUN park, but it's simply isn't a Disney one either. You obviously feel differently, but the reality is they blundered and they know it. TDS DOES take itself too seriously, but of course, only theme park geeks like us who take theme parks too seriously would ever say that LOL. But I feel TDS IS the way to go if Disney wants to stay Disney and innovate and keep it's customers in a exotic and fantasy world most of us grew up with. DCA is the way to go if they want to compete with Magic Mountain. Hey, it's their business and money, but then shouldn't be shocked when they can't keep a third of DL's attendance every year. TDS has it's problems, but it has no problems keeping 3/4th's of TDL fans every year and this is mostly with FULL admission. Yes, TDS ISN'T perfect, but no park/place isn't. I can go off on 100 different flaws about America and all the political ramifications, but yet, it's STILL one of the most visited countries and immigration requests every year. It must be doing something right . <<To call DCA "cheap" is an easy remark to make.>> Sorry, but it is in a Disney theme park sense. It was built on a tight budget, had MAYBE 2-3 years of development (TDS took well over a decade) and put in faster than a 3 stories McDonalds in Malaysia. Everything in the park look like a corner was cut there, an animatronic taken out here, a queue shortened there. Calling it how I see it. There is more imagination in the Exploration Fortress at TDS than most of DCA. It takes you NOWHERE. It doesn't ask you to be in a different state-of-mind then the one you are in when you entered the gate and honestly, the only creativity it asks of you is to look beyound the shortcuts and focus on what's there. I don't have to do that at DL, certainly not at TDS, but at DCA, I have to convince myself that the "entrance" with that sun hubcap is an integral part and an immersion to the culture, spirit and history of California that this native Californian lived all his life, in different parts of the state. Yep, soaked in it now ;D. I'm not trying to be mean, but Disney have could have done MUCH more with that park and it's sad what it turned out to be. Will it get better, it HAS to, but it's been mistake after mistake sans TOT and Aladdin. I have no idea how TDS will be percieved 10 years from now, but I have a feeling OLC will continue to do what it's been doing. With regards to WDC and the parks they are putting out today, that wouldn't be a good thing. GOD, I miss talking DCA!! Thanks .
