Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I Know that from a friend who worked for a German company that did a joint venture over there and suddenly they were out of the project and their products appeared all over the country.<< Knowing how the Chinese government works, it's not unreasonable to think that they could basically shut Disney out, and keep operating the property how they see fit, regardless of Disney's investment and/or any written agreements. The Party does what it likes, and if it decides that you're no longer a part of their business, then they kick you to the curb. Regardless of how big their stake is in the partnership, I see this as being a very risky position to be in. A theme park is much more difficult to 'rebrand' than something like a factory or store. If/when Disney gets pushed out, the park will continue operating as Disney (or some blackmarket facsimile of it) for as long as the Chinese government sees fit. This ongoing relationship is why I think SDL is much risker than any of the other parks they've done to date
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>Regardless of how big their stake is in the partnership, I see this as being a very risky position to be in.<<< It's a very risky undertaking and I hope that everything turns out fine, since the park has been in the making for 16 years now. At least Iger said in an interview that 16 years ago he was sent to China to find another place of a park besides HK.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros In business circles, the Shanghai project has been known publically for at least 15 years. I suspect the project's development goes back several years before that.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Disneyland was never in the business of predicting the future" Maybe not in "the business", but certainly Walt made every effort to give guests a tangible glimpse of what tomorrow might bring, and it could be argued that with Tomorrowland his designers transcended what people expected from an amusement park.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Given that Walt's Tomorrowland was filled with thrilling exhibits like the Dutch Boy Color Gallery and the Bathroom of Tomorrow, I think it's safe to assume that most guests weren't expecting those things in a theme park ; ) That said, Tomorrowland (1955 and 1967 version, 1959 less so) pulled a lot conceptually from World's Fairs of the era. It's not that big a leap to see how shows like those in Brussels, Seattle, New York, and Montreal could have influenced what guests might expect from a theme park-type experience in that era. Epcot certainly seems to further blend the lines between the traditional theme park experience and a World's Fair, though currently the park seems to be lacking any real direction or vision
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Given that Walt's Tomorrowland was filled with thrilling exhibits like the Dutch Boy Color Gallery and the Bathroom of Tomorrow, I think it's safe to assume that most guests weren't expecting those things in a theme park ; )" Agreed, but you and I both know that Walt ran out of funding and TL opened without the splash that was intended. The 1967 version and the post 1975 version in Florida were exceptional. They were far from perfect, but they both struck a serious and optimistic tone about what the future might look and feel like. Especially compared to what they try to pass as Tomorrowland now. "Epcot certainly seems to further blend the lines between the traditional theme park experience and a World's Fair, though currently the park seems to be lacking any real direction or vision." The original concept would have likely failed by now, but let's not even talk about what EPCOT was supposed to be. Talk about a concept that would have literally put Disney in the business of predicting the future! The people who toil away at WDI creating the latest Princess meet & greet would be incapable of that kind progressive ambitious conceptualizing even if Iger opened a flood gate of cash to spend on such a project. I've seen a lot of improvement in the projects from WDI in Anaheim since the DCA redo, but in some ways there's a repetitive staleness in WDI's projects reminiscent of the Disney Studios back in the 70s. HKDL's TL is a case in point.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>The people who toil away at WDI creating the latest Princess meet & greet would be incapable of that kind progressive ambitious conceptualizing even if Iger opened a flood gate of cash to spend on such a project.<< Even though the 1982 park wasn't nearly as ambitious as some of the concepts that came before it, it was still so much more bold and daring than anything that Disney has done since (especially as an investment proportional to the size of the company). Still, it seems like WDI hasn't had a really successful fit for the park since the mid-90's (not counting the Millennium Celebration, which I don't think came from WDI), and each change they make just moves us farther and farther away from the original intent There are plenty of small things that could make a big difference, but I'm not even sure I trust the current crop of Imagineers to update the video montage at the end of the American Adventure. It sure would be great to replace Lance and Tiger (and some other folks who aren't especially relevant any more), but I'd rather have a high-quality-but-obsolete ending than current garbage
Originally Posted By dagobert I don't know why, but I can't open the Shanghai Disneyland News and Updates. Does anyone else have that problem?
Originally Posted By dagobert Since the other thread doesn't work, I'm going post it here. First images of SDL meerchandise. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.disneycentralplaza.com/t2849p780-shanghai-disney-resort-2016-le-resort-en-general#2679874">http://www.disneycentralplaza....#2679874</a> Nice video from the SDL presentation, especially the first minutes. It doesn't start from the begining so you have restart it by your own. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.disneycentralplaza.com/t2849p780-shanghai-disney-resort-2016-le-resort-en-general#2658675">http://www.disneycentralplaza....#2658675</a>
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I posted in that thread and another one this morning, and seem to have broken both of them. I wonder if it might be related to having upgraded to Windows 10 earlier this week I'm on my phone now, so hopefully I don't screw this thread up too!
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>I posted in that thread and another one this morning, and seem to have broken both of them. I wonder if it might be related to having upgraded to Windows 10 earlier this week<<< The other one works for me. Just the News and Updates topic doesn't work, neither on my Windows7 PC, nor on the iPad or on my Android phone.
Originally Posted By oc_dean Leemac, I have been meaning for a while to get to your 'response post' - I always appreciate your insights ... there were things you said I didn't know before. Like Scot Drake being assigned to SDL's Tomorrowland. And when you said it looks like the latest Asian airport ... I immediately thought ... NO WONDER IT LOOKS SO FLAT! That's what airports tend to look like. I'd love to know what they heck they were thinking adding close to no 'vertical' stature to the land, with something akin to a modern airport. I'm actually a fan of Scot Drakes artworks. I've seen his "blue sky" proposals from stills used at an old D23 event. Too bad none of that aesthetic is making it's way in. I'll try to withhold judgement on SDL's TL .. when it's all complete and done. So little artwork has been shown. As for me expecting too much from a Theme Park - In the context you were speaking "Edutainment" ... perhaps. Now, it's all about Jedi Training to cut down bad guys, and Iron Man saving downtown Hong Kong .. and fighting more bad guys. With more rides and attractions centered .. You guessed it .. Fighting more bad guys. Still though .... some edutainment is not a bad thing. It's all about good balance. Some though in creative positions surely got their own ideas ... and manage to wreck that balance anyway. Oh well ... we humans are never perfect, and wreck something that will never be fixed. (DL's TL for example) But we did come close with EPCOT's Futureworld for a while. And TL67 is still the reining champion for all of TL's 60 years in existence. The context I was actually more speaking in .. was size and scope. From Futureoscope in France, to the Breman Space Museum in Germany, to the shrunken newer versions of TL's in Hong Kong, Shanghai, and soon to come for TDL's ..... It's amazing to me ... in 1982 ... Futureworld in EPCOT was incredible .. in it's size and offerings. TL in Disneyland in 1967 had 6 incredible attractions .... and added the incredible Space Mountain, and it's supporting elements next to it 10 years later. And now a company that's even bigger and making more money than it was then .... struggles to do just 1 ride. Or a land that barely has 3 rides at opening ... I don't think it's expecting so much that any TL can look a little more than a quaint little village, and try to imitate a thriving, and lively "city" type excitement we might see in the 22nd or 23 Century. The standard was set decades ago. But what has happened? Corporations get bigger with too many cooks, and more bean counters than ever before, marketing people sticking their input in. And more department heads than Walt ever had involved in his time. In the end, It's one big bogged down bureaucracy. And no one, not even the top heads have the vision that a land like Tomorrowland needs. Vision! I bet there are some people within the company who have 'vision.' But I bet their voices tend to get lost. Anyway .. about kinetics in Discoveryland, I could picture a victorian designed ride that would work, that doesn't have to have support beams that look like it's the 110/10 Interchange in LA. LOL Again I always appreciate your insights from one story, employee to the next. You're a wealth of knowledge and great contributor here - Many thanks.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I'm actually a fan of Scot Drakes artworks. I've seen his "blue sky" proposals from stills used at an old D23 event. Too bad none of that aesthetic is making it's way in.>> I've had grave concerns about TL from the outset. Scott is a good concept designer - he can do that big blue sky creative that helps "sell" the story. It sets the overall tone, mood and look of the locale that isn't generic but also not specific. He's also experienced in the Tomorrowland look - at Epcot with Mission:SPACE and the revamped Spaceship Earth and the TL's with the latest Star Tours. He even did the stage look for American Idol. Personally I find his stuff to be generic and formulaic but he has fans within WDI and WDP&R. And therein lies the problem. He isn't a trained architect and he hasn't got the experience of executing down through schematics to construction. He can conceive the look and feel but he isn't trained in the art of master- and menu-planning. He doesn't have the executive producer chops to go and build something that works. The Tron building looks like HKG airport to me. It is so derivative of a generic futuristic look. It doesn't have anything that sets it apart - no architectural flourishes. The debate over HKDL's Tomorrowland was always "how can you do Tomorrowland in the world's most futuristic city?" - when you look at such ground-breaking arichtecture as IM Pei's Bank of China building, Norman Foster's HSBC HQ, Pelli's IFC and KPF's ICC that are littered across the city. So you can either try and compete or don't. HKDL opted for more of a comic book look (the interstellar space port) that (it was hoped) would be more timeless. Some may say that is was unspectacular or lacked effort but there are very different realities to designing Tomorrowland than when TL'55 was conceived. Shanghai has some of the funkiest architecture around - neo-futuristic oddities that will date quickly (and some like the Pearl TV tower that already have) but the city is outlandish and outsized in its need for the future in architecture. I worry that SDL's attempts to blend into the city's landscape will leave the land looking more like a generic expo. I will say the biggest mistake it not setting a time and place or any backstory to the land. Open narratives that underpin lands are critical to their adoption by guests IMHO. When you go for closed narratives (like many of DCA's lands like Condor Flats) or no narratives at all you end up with a land that is just a series of attractions, shows, stores and restaurants with no cohesive core.
Originally Posted By leemac <<And when you said it looks like the latest Asian airport ... I immediately thought ... NO WONDER IT LOOKS SO FLAT! That's what airports tend to look like. I'd love to know what they heck they were thinking adding close to no 'vertical' stature to the land, with something akin to a modern airport. >> Airport terminals are probably the hardest single large-scale project an architect can design. They have so many practical considerations to be incorporated and have to large and flat expanses. The UK's two leading architects (Norman Foster and Richard Rogers) have executed the best new terminals in the last 2 decades from HKG to LHR Terminal 5 to Madrid's Terminal 4. They work as both architecturally interesting and mass transit hubs. However there is only so much that you can do with airports. The start of the transatlantic era saw some wonderful architecture like Saarinen's Dulles and JFK TWA Flight Center but as they became capacity-constrained architecture had to be more practical.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I worry that SDL's attempts to blend into the city's landscape will leave the land looking more like a generic expo.<< Ironically, Shanghai's own Expo in 2010 has a more distinctive and futuristic look than the Tomorrowland they're building now. TL doesn't lol bad, per se, but it is incredibly bland >>The start of the transatlantic era saw some wonderful architecture like Saarinen's Dulles and JFK TWA Flight Center but as they became capacity-constrained architecture had to be more practical.<< I flew out of Dulles this morning (and am currently stuck in the armpit that is LAX), and I continue to marvel hat how great that terminal building is. They did a big expansion of it in the late 90's, and recently added an interterminal train, and the whole place is just oozing with jet age era luxury. The United terminal desperately needs an update (apparently a new concourse has been in planning for years, though there's no set schedule), but the international terminal was recently rebuilt and is gorgeous. Dulles gets a bad rap for being inconvenient from the District, but I always love flying through there
