Originally Posted By vbdad55 < Homes in the middle class suburb where I live are only down 1.75% in the last year and foreclosures are virtually unheard of. There are currently 23 homes/condos in foreclosure out of 14,042 households. < same here - median home price actually rose YTY here - $464,000 w/ 182 homes in foreclosure ( city is 160,000 people ) of course we never saw the run up others areas ofthe country have. My home is a little more than double what I paid for it 18 years ago. My best friend inIrvine CA on the otherhand paid $560k for his home 8 years ago - today $1.3M. Wedidn't get that kindof increase/time. Florida market went nuts. I know as I looked to buy property near Vero 6-7 years ago and build on it within a 10 year timeframe. Since it was in a gated community they wouldn'tallow more than 5 years so Ipassed. Even today the lot isworthmore today than I would have paid for the lot and house then
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Minneapolis gasmust be cheaper than Chicago's. paying avg $4.40 here for reg ( was around $2.75 last year ) - $4.70 for premium for my car.>> Yes, our gas is considerably cheaper. In fact looking at the actual data current prices are up LESS than a dollar from last year. Data below is for regular gas. Today 3.890 Yesterday 3.895 One Week Ago 3.914 One Month Ago 3.849 One Year Ago 2.949 Source: <a href="http://www.minnesotagasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.minnesotagasprices.com/</a> P.S. You have to start renting a better vehicle. My wife recently leased a Dodge Nitro SUV. That sucker has a hefty curb weight of 3,982 pounds and a 210 HP engine. On our recent trip to Branson (driving FAST) we averaged between 19 and 20 MPG. I know that vehicle wouldn’t suit your needs but geez… you gotta do better than 17-18 MPG!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm a simplistic guy.>> Well ... if you say so, I'm not gonna argue. >We're not talking about a nice view. We're talking about disturbing, damaging and possibly destroying pristine environments that simply can't be replaced.< <<I understand that. I also think that we're in such a crunch right now that the need outweigh the risk. We're past the point where we can keep pristine lands untouched.>> I won't accept that kind of thinking. I'm sorry, but I can't. It's just like saying it's OK for the President to break the Constitution because he needs to in order to get the 'evildoers' ... there's too much of if the end justifies the means BS going on in our country these days. We are in a mess despite what the wealthy, the ignorant and the Little Miss Sunshines think. The answers aren't easy and people who think we should just drill anywhere and everywhere are looking for just that -- an easy answer. >I think if there is a mandate from the White House we can seriously cut our oil addiction in the 21st century and beyond.< <<I agree that the possibilities are there. I don't see Bush doing anything - we'll see if Obama can do better.>> You really shouldn't assume that a man of color is ever going to be elected to the highest office in this land. He should be a slam dunk, but I don't see it happening.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<You are assuming that because the real estate market sucks in Florida it sucks everywhere. >> No Trippy, I am doing no such thing. the market doesn't suck everywhere, but it does suck in MOST major areas of the USA. If it's still great in your community, more power to you. But I'm looking nationally. <<It is good to see that the Spirit is done panicking about home prices and has moved on to gas prices. Of course he is over-reacting there too.>> I'm not panicking at all as my home has still almost tripled in value despite the crash here in SoFla. And caring about the disaster that has befallen my country doesn't make me 'over-reacting' ... it just makes me cognizant of what is happening. I sometimes get the feeling that 99% of Americans are high every day because they seem to go thru life that way. Any other westernized country had the problems we have and there would be mass protests, industry shutdowns if not riots in the street ... here, it's just as if things are as fine as they were in 99. <<It is about 3,000 miles round trip from Minneapolis to Orlando. A typical car gets about 23 highway miles to the gallon. That means a round trip to WDW would use about 130 gallons. If gas now costs $1 more per gallon than it did last year that means the cost of my transportation to WDW has increased by $130. Big deal. Compared to the total cost of a WDW vacation that is nothing.>> Gas in and of itself is just one cost that has shot through the roof due to oil (which is now at $140 with OPEC saying we should expect $150-170 this summer). I don't understand how rational, intelligent (or mostly in your case ;-)) people can't wake up and say 'Holy *&^% we are in one helluva mess!' I see signs of this economic disaster every day in so many facets of life, but so many folks seem oblivious (must be drugs or religion). FYI, if you don't think the economy is weighing heavily on the theme park industry look for (shortly) a new thread by yours truly regarding a survey I was just sent a few hours ago. Very telling.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Since my name was mentioned, I have to ask: Spirit, why do you think the Space Shuttle was a boondoggle?>> Uhm ... ah .. I was kinda referring to the more famous Socrates. But still, I'll give you my take on the shuttle. The shuttle was the first spacecraft in our history that was a step back from its predecessors. It couldn't take you anywhere except just beyond our atmosphere. It was a space truck and advertised as such. At one point it was thought to be able to launch as many as 50-100 times a year. We realize how faulty that was. It also had inherent safety flaws that were never adequetly addressed and still haven't been resulting in those loss of two billion dollar spacecraft and 14 lives. It in no way has expanded our place in the universe. In 2008 we should have long since had a permanent base on the moon and have had men/women on Mars. We are decades away from that and I wonder if I'll live to see it. It should have never been created. The program has certainly accomplished some feats ... but nothing that outweighs the costs in both human lives, money and, more importantly, limiting Americans to low earth orbit instead of being out exploring the cosmos. I'd compare it to a Hummer. It can get you somewhere, but it costs you a bundle, doesn't raise the bar and most people think you're an ass for driving one. But that's just my opinion.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I see signs of this economic disaster every day in so many facets of life>> And that is what is hurting this country more than anything. Consumer confidence has gone to hell because all the headlines (and message boards) scream about how bad everything is. When consumer confidence goes to hell then the rantings of the pessimists become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Consumer spending is what drives this economy. You get everyone scared that we are going to hell in a hand basket and sure as heck we will. If everyone takes a deep breath and decides that it may be a bit painful but the current economy is not the end of life as we know it; then we will be OK.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And that is what is hurting this country more than anything. Consumer confidence has gone to hell because all the headlines (and message boards) scream about how bad everything is.>> I couldn't disagree with you more, Trippy. I don't listen to the talking heads and many of them are saying the direct opposite ... they say things aren't so bad and that things are great for Wall Street and how it's a terrific time to buy real estate etc ... I am talking about what I see daily. And I see pain all around. And I live in one of the most upscale communities in South Florida. If it's bad here, it's worse elsewhere by far. If things are great in Minnesota, which I doubt but I say for the purpose of this post, that's terrific. But by and large in this country, people are hurting, the government is letting us down in any/every way possible, and the talking heads on MSNBC and FOX are trying to make people think things aren't as bad as they are. They're right about that -- they're worse. <<When consumer confidence goes to hell then the rantings of the pessimists become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Consumer spending is what drives this economy. >> I am no pessimist. I am a realist. And why would consumer spending not be low? We can't live with $140 oil (I guess Wall Street figured that out today with a 358-point drop). I'd love to have more money to spend. The companies that employ me have cut my income by over 50% this year, yeah, you read that right. I'm hurting, but thankfully I have family I can rely on. <<You get everyone scared that we are going to hell in a hand basket and sure as heck we will. If everyone takes a deep breath and decides that it may be a bit painful but the current economy is not the end of life as we know it; then we will be OK.>> That's BS. The economy is a disaster and people should be piling on our leaders for help. Maybe instead of spending billions in Iraq, we should be investing that money in our companies and people.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip OK. Now I get it. Your personal situation isn't that great right now. When my personal situation has been bad I've thought we were going to hell in a hand basket too. But there are two things that seem to be making people crazy. Housing and oil. Neither one is that big a deal for MOST people. HOUSING. Housing prices have tanked in the last few years, but housing prices now are about where they were in the third quarter of 2005. That is not even three years ago. So anyone who has been in their home at least three years should be OK. That definition fits the vast majority of people. Sure, there are a lot of foreclosures right now. That is a combination of speculators getting burned and people buying houses they couldn't really afford. Frankly, now both groups are paying for their folly and I can't get very upset about it. There is also an upside to the housing market. Housing right now is a good value. We just bought a home in Branson for when we retire next year and our daughter is buying her first home. For anyone in a position to buy a home without needing to sell one, the current market is just fine! OIL. No one really likes paying $4 per gallon for gas, but in reality it doesn't hurt most people. The average American drives about 1,000 miles per month. Figuring an average of 16 MPG (which is actually very low) and gas costing $1 more than last year, the average American is spending $62.50 per month more on gasoline. So what? Cut back on going out to dinner just one time during the month and you've covered the increase.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < I know that vehicle wouldn’t suit your needs but geez… you gotta do better than 17-18 MPG!< Oh I agree - but I am limited to what Hertz has that fits size wise for 5 people ( usually ) - and the darn Ford minivan is what they have. I get such a great corporate rate Ihave to live with the sucky gas mileage- (not to mention I amno fan of Ford products ) - I would never buy one - but I am pretty much stuck. Thank God it isn't now, butI rent from a neighborhood Hertz- and the one time I showed up theminivan was gone and all they had left was an Expedition. They cut me a $75 credit ( this was about 5 years ago) - on the spot - and I didn't have to return it filled.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < I know that vehicle wouldn’t suit your needs but geez… you gotta do better than 17-18 MPG!< Oh I agree - but I am limited to what Hertz has that fits size wise for 5 people ( usually ) - and the darn Ford minivan is what they have. I get such a great corporate rate Ihave to live with the sucky gas mileage- (not to mention I amno fan of Ford products ) - I would never buy one - but I am pretty much stuck. Thank God it isn't now, butI rent from a neighborhood Hertz- and the one time I showed up theminivan was gone and all they had left was an Expedition. They cut me a $75 credit ( this was about 5 years ago) - on the spot - and I didn't have to return it filled.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <You really shouldn't assume that a man of color is ever going to be elected to the highest office in this land. He should be a slam dunk, but I don't see it happening< as someone from his home state I disagree strongly he should be a slam dunk - he is a very nice guy, but has the potential to be the next Jimmy Carter. He accomplishes very little and likely is too intelligent and too nice for DC.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <But there are two things that seem to be making people crazy. Housing and oil. Neither one is that big a deal for MOST people. < Trippy, you're leaving out one of the biggest impact issues,but I don't blame you because you willseealmost nothing about it on the news or from EITHER candidate. Kucinich talked about it as did Hillary some -- Off shoring of white collar jobs -- now totallin 9 million over the last 10 years. Most of those skilled people ( financial / tax/ admin etc.) ended up with pay cuts -service industry jobs - limited or no benefits and pensions. My company alone has moved over 20,000 positions to Brazil in the last 4 years. These jobs are never going to return, and this has zero to do with a global economy - they are performing work for the US only, not forSouth American customers. add health care to your list of 2 - to make this 4 major issues. My wife works in health care admin for a hospital- and the # ofpeople with no insruance is staggering. Nowthat my oldest daughter turned 23 and while finishing school - she needed coverage - no problem COBRA - for over $500/mo ! How many people can afford that ?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<OK. Now I get it. Your personal situation isn't that great right now. When my personal situation has been bad I've thought we were going to hell in a hand basket too.>> I'm not basing my opinions on my personal situation. It's certainly not dire like some folks. I'm basing it on what I observe all over with other folks. I can turn your statement right around and say that if things are going well for you that you simply can't see that many others are hurting. A whole lot more than most people want to cop to. <<But there are two things that seem to be making people crazy. Housing and oil. Neither one is that big a deal for MOST people.>> I couldn't disagree with you more. Housing is in a crisis in much of this country and people who were struggling with $2-3 gas are getting drowned by $4-5 petrol. <<HOUSING. Housing prices have tanked in the last few years, but housing prices now are about where they were in the third quarter of 2005. That is not even three years ago. So anyone who has been in their home at least three years should be OK. That definition fits the vast majority of people. Sure, there are a lot of foreclosures right now. That is a combination of speculators getting burned and people buying houses they couldn't really afford. Frankly, now both groups are paying for their folly and I can't get very upset about it.>> Well, you can't be upset about it because it doesn't seem to affect you, your family or friends. It hasn't affected me, but I sure see it affecting others. And I am upset by it. I am upset that our government will constantly and consistently bail out big busines, while letting average Americans drown under the 'personal responsibility' mantra. <<There is also an upside to the housing market. Housing right now is a good value. We just bought a home in Branson for when we retire next year and our daughter is buying her first home. For anyone in a position to buy a home without needing to sell one, the current market is just fine!>> Yes. For the minority of folks who can buy and or invest in real estate, the times are certainly good. But I doubt even you would say that's most folks. <<OIL. No one really likes paying $4 per gallon for gas, but in reality it doesn't hurt most people. The average American drives about 1,000 miles per month. Figuring an average of 16 MPG (which is actually very low) and gas costing $1 more than last year, the average American is spending $62.50 per month more on gasoline. So what? Cut back on going out to dinner just one time during the month and you've covered the increase.>> I just want to know what you base your assumption on? The fact you can afford an extra $62.50 a month? I know my gas costs have gone up more than that. I also understand that the price of oil/gas is the driver behind higher prices at the grocery store, mall and travel. It's just not a simple thing. And have you heard of ONE major American company that has given its employees cost of living raises to make up for the huge rise in prices? I haven't.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<as someone from his home state I disagree strongly he should be a slam dunk - he is a very nice guy, but has the potential to be the next Jimmy Carter. He accomplishes very little and likely is too intelligent and too nice for DC.>> Well, it's been quite a while since we've had any intelligence or niceness at 1600.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And have you heard of ONE major American company that has given its employees cost of living raises to make up for the huge rise in prices? I haven't< 400,000 employees - our reaction was freezing pensions and for the most part raises for all but a handful of reltively new employees being paid way below market Mostcompanies just laying off - done in small increments to fly under the radar ( unlike Ford and GM) - unemployment figures are bunk
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<<as someone from his home state I disagree strongly he should be a slam dunk - he is a very nice guy, but has the potential to be the next Jimmy Carter. He accomplishes very little and likely is too intelligent and too nice for DC.>> Well, it's been quite a while since we've had any intelligence or niceness at 1600.< don't disagree, but right now I'll take an SOB if they're effective -
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I am upset that our government will constantly and consistently bail out big busines, while letting average Americans drown under the 'personal responsibility' mantra.>> So I'm supposed to pay higher taxes because someone bought a McMansion they couldn't afford? There are three primary groups suffering from the collapse of the housing bubble (besides the people in Florida, Southern California and Las Vegas). 1) Low income people. They got snookered by smooth talking real estate guys and got themselves into mortgages that they couldn't afford once they started resetting. I feel bad for these people, but I don't see bailing them out. Essentially they could never afford to buy a house before and really couldn't this time either. They are back to where they really belonged in the first place... as renters. 2) Social climbers who wanted the McMansion they really couldn't afford. Instead of staying in that perfectly good 4 bedroom 2,500 square foot house they went for the brass ring. Four thousand square foot houses with professional grade kitchen appliances, granite and massive master bath suites with whirlpool tubs. Silly them. Unlike the poor folk in #1 these people really should have know better. Greed got them. One of the seven deadlies. No tax money from me for them either. 3) Builders putting up entire developments of McMansions on spec. What they hell were they thinking? What happened to the days when you pre-sold at least 40% of your development before building anything on spec? Once again greed got them. No soup for them. <<Off shoring of white collar jobs -- now totallin 9 million over the last 10 years.>> Agreed. That is a huge problem that the government needs to do something about. I've been sheltered from it by working for a public university. But I know it is happening. <<add health care to your list >> Yes, you are right there too. The cost of Health Insurance through the University for retirees is $1,000 per month. We are lucky enough to be able to afford that. I know many could not. We are also lucky that in response to tight budgets the University is offering long term employees like my wife and me three years of paid benefits if we retire by June 5, 2009. There is no "buyout" as far as severance pay goes, but what the heck. The insurance looked darn good to us. So did getting out of our high pressure jobs. <<I can turn your statement right around and say that if things are going well for you that you simply can't see that many others are hurting. >> I'll accept the truth in that. No one in my family or group of friends is hurting right now, so things probably seem better than they really are. Well my son's hurting, but he's ALWAYS hurting so there is no real change there.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <And have you heard of ONE major American company that has given its employees cost of living raises to make up for the huge rise in prices? I haven't< <<400,000 employees - our reaction was freezing pensions and for the most part raises for all but a handful of reltively new employees being paid way below market>> Typical. And that's my issue. In this country, business takes no responsibility and bears no burden for the market conditions. It is all passed on to the worker, who doesn't even often benefit when times are great, who drowns. I'm sorry, but when we can bail out major corporations, while letting hard-working people get by on their own ... I dunno ... it just seems so anti-American. We're not supposed to be like that. We're supposed to take care of our people. Not ensure that Bear Stearns gets stolen from its stockholders or let Enron get away with employees' pensions. I have no problem with responsibility. I just want to see corporations have it. The economy is bad? Too bad, you pay your employees more and instead of giving shareholders 20% growth, they get 4% and be happy with it. (I know I'm living in Fantasyland) <<Mostcompanies just laying off - done in small increments to fly under the radar ( unlike Ford and GM) - >> It never ends. I mean ... where do all these people millions ... who were working professional jobs at professional wages ... where do they wind up? Working at Starbucks for $9 if they're lucky, $7 at WalMart if not? Is our Prez still on crack? What about Congress? Where is protection for workers? <<unemployment figures are bunk>> Ain't that the truth. I haven't had one full-time employer in over a decade. In good times or bad times, I don't ever factor in. There are so many folks out there who have just given up on working or do a bit of this or that. Our employment situation is 1000 times worse than is reported. And make no mistake, our leaders know this.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I am upset that our government will constantly and consistently bail out big busines, while letting average Americans drown under the 'personal responsibility' mantra.>> <<So I'm supposed to pay higher taxes because someone bought a McMansion they couldn't afford?>> I dunno. I'm paying for a war that I don't agree with. I'm paying for many policies that I don't agree with. And Trippy, I've said it before, but there is a double-standard in this country. Big Business has no responsibility and is constantly getting handouts no matter how poorly run the companies are, while individuals are held to a different, much higher standard. I'm supposed to say 'sure, let's bail out another airline, another phone company, another brokerage firm, but the family of four that wanted a nicer house in a better 'hood than they could afford ... nah, throw em out!' The Spirit doesn't fly that way. <<There are three primary groups suffering from the collapse of the housing bubble (besides the people in Florida, Southern California and Las Vegas). 1) Low income people. They got snookered by smooth talking real estate guys and got themselves into mortgages that they couldn't afford once they started resetting. I feel bad for these people, but I don't see bailing them out. Essentially they could never afford to buy a house before and really couldn't this time either. They are back to where they really belonged in the first place... as renters. 2) Social climbers who wanted the McMansion they really couldn't afford. Instead of staying in that perfectly good 4 bedroom 2,500 square foot house they went for the brass ring. Four thousand square foot houses with professional grade kitchen appliances, granite and massive master bath suites with whirlpool tubs. Silly them. Unlike the poor folk in #1 these people really should have know better. Greed got them. One of the seven deadlies. No tax money from me for them either. 3) Builders putting up entire developments of McMansions on spec. What they hell were they thinking? What happened to the days when you pre-sold at least 40% of your development before building anything on spec? Once again greed got them. No soup for them.>> I'd agree with group 3, but the first two? No way. They deserve help. <<Off shoring of white collar jobs -- now totallin 9 million over the last 10 years.>> <<Agreed. That is a huge problem that the government needs to do something about. I've been sheltered from it by working for a public university. But I know it is happening.>> It keeps getting worse. There was a story the other day that Nielsen (yeah, the TV ratings folks) want to lay off most of their staff HQed in Oldsmar, FLA and -- GET THIS -- bring in people from INDIA to Oldsmar to take their place at lower wages. This should be illegal. The worse thing. Only one lone city councilwoman has a problem with this. Everyone else is kissing the behinds of Big Business. It's absolutely sickening. Of course, all of those politicians are never going to have to worry about this happening to them so why should they care? <<add health care to your list >> <<Yes, you are right there too. The cost of Health Insurance through the University for retirees is $1,000 per month. We are lucky enough to be able to afford that. I know many could not.>> Mine just went up over $100 a month. Pretty soon, it'll get to a place where I either have trouble affording it or they'll just decide I've actually used it and drop me. I have family that can't even BUY freaking insurance. Again, this is in the USA. Greatest nation on earth. Most compassionate country on earth. Best people on earth. Wave the flag. ... Sorry, but I no longer buy the rhetoric. <<I can turn your statement right around and say that if things are going well for you that you simply can't see that many others are hurting. >> <<I'll accept the truth in that. No one in my family or group of friends is hurting right now, so things probably seem better than they really are. Well my son's hurting, but he's ALWAYS hurting so there is no real change there.>> That's just it, Trippy. We all tend to view things from our prism of reality. I like to step out and look at things in larger scope. I remember hearing how great things were in the early days of Bill Clinton. Well, they were godawful for me, but I recognized that most folks were doing pretty well. I try and take myself out of the equation when discussing the economy because I have some VERY unique circumstances (some good, some bad).
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Our employment situation is 1000 times worse than is reported. And make no mistake, our leaders know this.< with both sides of the aisle owned by lobbyists and special interests - regardless of pre-election rhetoric neither Obama nor McCain will make any difference in the employment/benefit situation....
