Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But it doesn't mean they deserve to be treated humanely or with respect, because they deserve neither.<< We hold ourselves to higher standards and we do so because that says something about us. Maintaining those standards is not easy but in the long run serves us better.
Originally Posted By DAR Yeah I'm sure Al-Qaeda is going to say. You know we killed some of your citizens and soldiers. But because you treated some of our guys with decency and respect, we're only killing Jews now. Give me a break.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan We don't dance to Al Qaeda's tune, DAR. We can stick to our own high principles, or we can regress to the eye-for-an-eye world Al Qaeda craves. I don't think treating Al Qaeda captives by civilized standards will change any of the nutjob's minds. But it will make their rhetoric against us seem a little more hollow and perhaps put somewhat of a crimp in their recruitment drives. Believe me, I share your disgust for terrorists. But I don't want us to throw away what's good and different about civilized nations in the hunt for maniacs.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>We haven't.<< Not with our current administration, that is correct.
Originally Posted By mawnck See, that's a good way for conservatives to get my goat, in case you were wondering. "America is awesome, no matter what." Horse pucky. If America violates its own Constitution by holding people who haven't been charged with a crime indefinitely, then America sucks. If America tortures prisoners, even very very VERY bad ones after they've been convicted, then America sucks. We do not get a free pass just because we're America, no matter what a bunch of fat white flag-waving spittle-spewing rabble-rousing rednecks say. We shouldn't just defend our ideals, we have to live up to them too. I will never understand why so many conservatives are incapable of understanding or even processing this connection. I just can't. Why defend something you don't even support yourself? Why not just declare a fascist state and get it over with?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <If America violates its own Constitution by holding people who haven't been charged with a crime indefinitely, then America sucks.> Were we violating our Constitution when we shot 3 pirates? Were we violating our Constitution when we held German or Japanese soldiers indefinitely during WWII? No, we weren't, just like we weren't violating our Constitution during the Bush administration. You want to know how liberals get my goat? They argue from a faulty premise, or against strawmen.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Were we violating our Constitution when we held German or Japanese soldiers indefinitely during WWII? << Were we violating our Constitution when we rounded up American citizens and put them in camps? And yet, this is the sort of thing that happens in the eye-for-an-eye to hell with higher standards mindset takes hold. Get cute with the definition of torture, and it's a slippery slope indeed.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***<<I wouldn't have had a problem with it. I don't so much care when idiots like this get shot.> Yeah, just so long as they're not held indefinitely in cell in a foreign country, deprived of lawyers, and subjected to harsh interogation.*** As usual, Douglas, you can't seem to grasp the basic difference between a cop or soldier justifiably killing someone in the line of duty versus the way prisoners (who are of course no longer a threat at that point) should be dealt with. Amazing.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <And yet, this is the sort of thing that happens in the eye-for-an-eye to hell with higher standards mindset takes hold.> So you condemn shooting pirates who seize US ship captains?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So you condemn shooting pirates who seize US ship captains?<< Certainly not. I never said that upholding our own high ideals means never having to kill a bad guy, or that doing so violates those principles. Lethal force in defense of life and liberty isn't against our own high standards. Torturing people is. Torture is a tool of despots and thugs, not us.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <As usual, Douglas, you can't seem to grasp the basic difference between a cop or soldier justifiably killing someone in the line of duty versus the way prisoners (who are of course no longer a threat at that point) should be dealt with.> No, I understand the difference quite well.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <What's the difference, then?> In the first one, there's a dead body.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Come on Douglas, just out with it. I'm with you on this. Come on. They have you backed into a corner here.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Come on Douglas, just out with it. I'm with you on this. Come on. They have you backed into a corner here.*** He doesn't have an answer, that's the thing DVC. Nobody does. They just like to throw these unrelated "examples" out their to try and prove some sort of moral equivalency which, unless you truly and enthusiastically approve in the torturing and indefinite detentions on a morality level (some do), make no sense at all. There is a world of difference between the actions of a LEO or a Navy seal in a "hot" situation, and the actions of a government towards its' captives once they are in custody and no longer a direct danger. Any fool can see that. But I guess not, when you've got those blinders on.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I think the original challenge to Doug was to explain the difference between inhumane torture and humane interrogation.... NOT the difference in shooting these pirates and holding prisoners of war at Gitmo. I mean, there is a difference, in both examples.
