Originally Posted By utahjosh I, UtahJosh, hereby condemn Barack Obama for telling lies. <a href="http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/statements/byruling/false/" target="_blank">http://www.politifact.com/pers...g/false/</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <"We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers," Romney pollster Neil Newhouse said at a panel organized by ABC News.> Wow. How bald-faced can you get? In other words, we're not going to let the facts get in the way of a good smear. Just FYI, in Josh's links: Obama's "mostly false": 12%. Romney 17% Obama's "false": 14%. Romney 17%. Obama's "Pants on fire" (worst, most blatant lies): 1%. Romney: 9% (!) And two of Obama's 6 "pants on fire" statements were from the 2008 campaign. No, I'm not excusing Obama here. But I am pointing out which campaign is lying more.
Originally Posted By ecdc It's also worth noting that there's different types of "lies" in the fact checking world. Nearly all of Obama's statements that have been rated untrue or "lies" are around matter of policy, interpretation, or "fuzzy math." I don't love it and I don't excuse it, but it's exactly the kind of stunts politicians have pulled since...well...forever. An example of this would be the Politifact "lie of the year," that went to Democrats for claiming the Ryan plan would "kill Medicare." There's that political squishiness - of course Medicare would continue under Ryan's plan, so there's a level of dishonesty at work there, but it is true that it would kill Medicare "as we know it," and so after the criticism, Democrats added those last four words to clarify. These kinds of "lies" or distortions are a far cry from claiming to be a hunter when one isn't a hunter, or otherwise saying things that are just patently untrue, and there's really no parsing to be had.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney To me, most interesting lies in Josh's links are about the healthcare act and Medicare. Romney is deliberately lying about those things to sway the elderly and those on the fence about the healthcare act to his side. The thing is, the lies are often 180 degrees from the actual truth, and people won't do the research to figure that out for themselves so they believe Romney.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Now they've gone too far: <a href="http://www.theonion.com/articles/romney-murdered-jonbenet-ramsey-new-obama-campaign,29114/" target="_blank">http://www.theonion.com/articl...n,29114/</a>
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Touchy, touchy. It only crosses the line without this final paragraph: "Though the Obama campaign has denied it, many Beltway observers have said the advertisements are retaliation for the Romney camp’s highly controversial ad, “Boom,” which accuses the president of being the fertilizer bomb that destroyed an Oklahoma City federal building in 1995." How convenient that you thought Romney's birther "joke" was funny, but that this typical Onion satirical piece was not.
Originally Posted By ecdc I took "now they've gone too far" as sarcasm on Josh's part, enjoying the Onion piece. But he can speak for himself - maybe I'm wrong. BTW, thought the Onion article was great.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox OK, I'm eating crow. Obama lies. I don't like it. I condemn it. And I still condemn Romney's lies. The difference? Romney's camp openly stated today that they don't care. Fact-checkers don't matter. They will continue to lie about Obama because it's working. You're right, Josh. Mark my words. You're right. ALL POLITICIANS LIE. But I still think you're voting for Romney because he's a Mormon. And I'll never vote for a conservative Republican who wants to continue to reward the rich with tax cuts at the expense of trashing social programs to help the poor, disabled, unemployed, and elderly. And that's Romney/Ryan in spades.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I appreciate your post, skinner. I'm appalled by the answer given by the Romney camp about "Fact-checkers." But it read more to me about "We trust our own fact checking more than perhaps someone out to get us checking facts" than just a bald-faced lie. I still don't like it. Be honest, Mitt! Sad that I chuckle at the thought of asking a major candidate to be honest, as if it's impossible. It's the thing I admire most about Ron Paul.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But it read more to me about "We trust our own fact checking more than perhaps someone out to get us checking facts" than just a bald-faced lie. > By definition, you really can't "fact-check" yourself. And you can't be "gotten" if you're telling the truth.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <And you can't be "gotten" if you're telling the truth.> Unless the other guy is lying with his "gotcha." It's ugly and endless.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Some things can't be obfuscated, Josh. The fact checkers who say that Romney is lying aren't lying about that. Romney or his mouthpieces may try to claim that, but that's just piling a lie on top of the first lie.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox I'm with Dabob on this one. That comment was not in the "we trust our own fact-checking more" vein of rhetoric. Romney's adviser was lying through his teeth, about the bald faced lies being told on the stump and in the approved ads. Romney is still deliberately misleading seniors with the "Obama cuts to Medicare" rants. This is the ad still playing in key swing states: VOICEOVER: “You paid into Medicare for years?” VIDEO TEXT: “You Paid” VOICEOVER: “Every paycheck…” VOICEOVER: “Now, when you need it?” VIDEO TEXT: “Now When You Need It” VOICEOVER: “Obama has cut $716 billion dollars from Medicare.” VIDEO TEXT: “Obama Cut $716 Billion From Medicare” VOICEOVER: "Why?” VOICEOVER: “To pay for ObamaCare.” VIDEO TEXT: “To Pay For ObamaCare” VOICEOVER: “So now the money you paid for your guaranteed healthcare?” VIDEO TEXT: “The Money You Paid For Guaranteed Healthcare” VOICEOVER: “Is going to a massive new government program that's not for you." VIDEO TEXT: "Massive New Government Program That's Not For You” VOICEOVER: “The Romney-Ryan plan protects Medicare benefits for today?s seniors and strengthens the plan for the next generation.” VIDEO TEXT: “Protects Medicare Benefits” MITT ROMNEY: “I'm Mitt Romney, and I approve this message.” Obama isn't cutting their benefits. He's overhauling the Medicare Advantage private insurance scam where for-profit health care providers are sticking the Federal government for increased costs thanks to a sweetheart deal created during the Bush administration. The AHCA is taking the overpayments to those Medicare Advantage providers and giving them back to the seniors in the form of free wellness care and closing of the donut hole in the Part D drug plan. For Romney to keep screaming at these seniors that Obama is cutting billions out of Medicare to pay for Obamacare is flat out false. The overpayments to the for-profit health care industry are being re-distributed to the seniors in the form of free wellness care and a closed donut hole gap that once existed in their drug coverage. Romney should be ashamed of this ad. But he's not. And that's why he's a poor Christian.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The hell of it is, it's at least partially working. It worked in 2010 too; that was, of course, a Republican Wave election, but exit polls showed that the relentless GOP ads that spread the same lie (that the ACA, or "Obamacare" cut hundreds of billions from Medicare) were effective. The Republicans hope that spreading this lie will at least let them break even on Medicare, which is what the polls show now (it's about 50/50 among seniors as to who they think will protect Medicare better). They'd be happy with that, since Medicare is a traditionally Democratic issue. Much of the public won't be fooled, but they're hoping to fool enough to make a difference. It's really disgusting.
Originally Posted By utahjosh It bothers me that you feel you need to call him a poor Christian. I don't call Obama that, even when he lies. Every Christian is trying, at some level, to follow Christ's teachings. And every Christian fails. It's not for me to judge the level of faith or "Christianity" of someone.
Originally Posted By planodisney there are so many false statements from the Obama campaign that i dont even know where to begin. 1. obama said that romey supported eliminating time limits in the welfare reform law and would allow people to stay on wlfare forever. 2. obama said romney would deny gay people the right to adopt children. 3. obama scaring students by telling them that tjhe romney/ryan budget would cause interest rates on student loans to double. 4. Obama telling people that Romney left Mass. with a $1 billion deficit. All of these charged as false by politifact. It's funny, but I dont think some of you understand that we, on this side, see this campaign by the Obama administration as the most dirty, vicious, decietful national campaign we have ever seen. Even for democrats, he has taken class warfare, division by identity politics and demonizing an opponent because of a fear of losing to a whole new level. look, both sides massage facts and then assess the worst possible spin on it to make the opponent look as bad as possible, however, the obama campaign has no problem inspiring hate and anger of the american people against each other in order to maintain power. I know the liberals on here think our side are the ones being vicious and lying, but i just want to make sure you guys realize that WE, genuinely believe this is the most viciously deceitful, void of conscience campaign we have ever seen by the obama administration. this isnt some spin, but how we realy feel. So dont think you are the only ones who feel agrieved. If you guys want more, just say so and i would be happy to list many more false allegations and flat out lies from the Obama campaign against Romney. dont forget one of the biggest and heartless lies of all, scaring current seniors in South Florida that Romney and Ryan would take away their benefits. But, it is Democratic party politics 101. The ends always justifies the means no matter how bad we have to decieve to remane in power.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<It bothers me that you feel you need to call him a poor Christian.>> I'm going to call anyone a "poor Christian" when I see massive contempt for the poor, the sick, and the elderly. Romney fully supports Ryan's budget, which is going to shaft anyone under 55 who's been paying into Medicare for decades. Romney also wants to take away the added benefits that seniors and younger folks like me on disability enjoy TODAY, that's saving them hundreds if not thousands each year in out-of-pocket expenses, by repealing the AHCA. And let's not forget what the Ryan budget will do to the Medicaid program in this nation, by slashing over $800 billion from the program. How does that help seniors? Over 90% of all seniors in nursing homes participate in Medicaid, in order to cover the outrageous costs of being in a nursing home. Without Medicaid, these seniors would have no alternative for their care. How is that, exactly, looking after our nation's elderly? I would call any self-professed Christian a "poor Christian" if they displayed such little regard for the Beatitudes. That's the very heart and soul of Christ's teachings. And the conservative Republicans have thrown the Beatitudes off the cliff and into the ocean. They pretend these teachings don't exist, that Jesus never gave the Sermon on the Mount. But he did. No excuse for Christians to ignore them. And that goes double for Mitt Romney.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<dont forget one of the biggest and heartless lies of all, scaring current seniors in South Florida that Romney and Ryan would take away their benefits.>> Read my last post. This one happens to be absolutely true.
