Originally Posted By Dabob2 Well, the NY parade really isn't anything like that (no dildo floats or anything), and having not seen the SF version, it's hard to speak with any authority. We're really not even disagreeing that much here. We both think such displays at events like this damage the image of gay people; I just don't think it's fair that they do, and you seem to think it's more justified. We can leave it at that.
Originally Posted By jonvn "They do in Japan, actually." Yes, but we don't live in Japan. If gays want to be accept as average people here, then they have to act like average people here. "the NY parade really isn't anything like that" How not fun. The people in SF are generally more out there anyway perhaps
Originally Posted By Mr X Jon, you have frequently said that average americans are dumbed-down louts (or something similar) living in a once great nation... So when people bring up the fact that MANY places in the world are cool with this stuff both straight AND gay, why do you continue to say "well, it's not okay in America so it's no good"?
Originally Posted By Mr X **Most people drink. Drinking is seen as an average behavior.** **Drinking yes. Public drunkenness, public peeing, no.** It is in Japan.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>It is in Japan. << *stamping foot* *whine* But we're not in Japan!!!
Originally Posted By Darkbeer The original post, dealing with the Firefighters talk about sexual harassment and the American legal standard of that issue, which IMHO is more conservative than Rio, Japan and elsewhere. But the question is, did the San Diego LGBT Parade have too much sexual overt activity by the participants and spectators in the public streets, and did the requirement of on duty Firefighters to be part of the parade, in which other floats had male strip pole dancers with just a small speedo like bikini and Dykes on Bykes, with some rides without any type of top (just a small piece of tape over the nipple) in it consist of Sexual Harassment by the standards of the State of California and the US Federal laws?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<"They do in Japan, actually." Yes, but we don't live in Japan.>> And not all gay people live in San Fransisco. <<The people in SF are generally more out there anyway perhaps>> Finally at 179 posts he get it!
Originally Posted By Shooba >>If gays want to be accept as average people here, then they have to act like average people here.<< In other words, act how you want. The "average" person in America is religous, yet you are not. I guess you shouldn't be accepted as part of "normal" society either? Most of us shrug at public nudity or genital parade floats. I guess not in America, where sexuality of all kinds is pretty much taboo to talk about. It's ridiculously unnatural, and I'm delighted that the gay community is not so uptight about these things.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> If there were attempts made to keep such behavior (public nudity) from happening, such as not allowing it in the first place, it'd go a long way towards making people think that homosexuals were not a bunch of mental cases who are sexually damaged. << I can't speak for anybody else, but personally I'm not setting myself up as an example to the world or seeking out their respect. Jon is assuming a "need for approval" within these events that just isn't there. Nor should it be. It's not about putting your best foot forward, and minding your p's and q's. It's about celebrating your own pride in who you are. Sure it's licentious - if that's a problem then maybe this party isn't for you. As you're aware, public nudity within san francisco is practically ubiquitous. Parades, street fairs, footraces, beaches, clubs, parties and such. They're also usually fueled by alcohol and other "favors". In other words, it's a "party". If such an environment isn't going to sit well with your sensibilities, it would be best to just skip it. But the troubling part for me is that you seem to take it one step further and decide that anyone outside of your "norms" is thus deserving of ridicule and disrespect - it's as if they've unknowingly granted you permission to broad-brush them as "deranged" "damaged" or "messed up". You can think whatever you like - they're not there seeking the approval of tongue-cluckers. Quite the opposite actually. >> you don't go and have as the focus of your parade your sexual activity. It sends the wrong message. << Sez who? What would be a better "focus" for a gay parade in your view? Diversity and inclusiveness is the overall theme, unlike most parades.
Originally Posted By barboy Beer, I really do believe that the firefighters have something to work with here. We are in a day where everybody is a "victim". I am not saying that I want them to prevail--- I'm just saying that I predict a settlement at some point and if not that then some kind of precedent. *****Hey, by the way has anybody told you that you look really good in conversation. That's a great color for you!---unlike that drab tone you used to wear to every topic with links lacking your opinion.*****
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I actually think this thread has gone rather well. I'm amazed at the thought provoking posts from many individuals we seldom here from. Obviously, this is a very charged topic and reasonable minds are prevailing. Its so great to actually see a thread in WE were people aren't being vicious. I would have to say that all the Pride parades I have been to ( and participated in ) were not overtly sexual. I'm not sure what goes on at San Fransisco's Pride.... but I'm sure its unique to that city alone. Guys parading around and dancing on floats in speedos is about as overtly sexualized as your typical episode of Bay Watch. Most communities have ordances against men exposing themselves and most communites enforce those ordances.
Originally Posted By barboy "It's not about putting your best foot forward, and minding your p's and q's. It's about celebrating your own pride in who you are." zuux, I agree very much. I think it is refreshing that people get out and do what they feel they need to do either for the sake of fun and party or for the sake of a political cause. More power to them I say. Unfortunately for the gay community as a whole the gay pride parades(in San Fran at least) do project an image. Just like born again christians on tv affect the image of all born again christians.
Originally Posted By jonvn "why do you continue to say "well, it's not okay in America so it's no good"?" Because this is the country they want to be accepted in, not Japan. If gay men want to be accepted as average, they have to start swilling beer, watching football, and acting like braindead thugs. Like the rest of Americans. "Finally at 179 posts he get it! " I've always gotten it. You don't seem to be following me, though. When people see this sort of thing, or hear about it, it doesn't matter if it is in SF or not. SF is viewed as a city where there are a lot of gay people, the gay capital of America. What goes on here is going to affect gay people across the country. And what happens here is pretty bizarre. I don't see how a defense can be made of this. Saying something happens in Japan is pretty irrelevant to what the attitude of Americans are. "Jon is assuming a "need for approval" within these events that just isn't there. Nor should it be. " I think there is a intense need for approval or at least acceptance. I see it all the time. "If such an environment isn't going to sit well with your sensibilities, it would be best to just skip it." Doesn't bother me. I'm just talking about how it comes across, and why these firemen are acting the way they are. These guys could walk down the street with anal probes sticking out their rears and it's fine as far as I'm concerned, but the general population is not going to see it that way. Now, folks can try and deny or dismiss this, but what I'm saying is really kind of on the mark in terms of how people think and view gay people. You do stuff like this, or allow it to happen, or encourage it, or forgive it, and the population of the ocuntry is going to look, shake their heads, and want nothing to do with you.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<the NY parade really isn't anything like that>> <How not fun.> Oh, it's plenty of fun. Just maybe not as "out there" as the SF parade, that's all.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But the question is, did the San Diego LGBT Parade ...in it consist of Sexual Harassment by the standards of the State of California and the US Federal laws?> I should hope not, because that would make a mockery of actual cases of sexual harassment. But lawsuits can often result in "huh?" verdicts, and/or settlements to make it go away.
Originally Posted By jonvn Well, it depends on what happened, I guess, too. It all comes down to what is determined to be the facts of the individual case.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Well, the Firefighters request to sue the city was approved, and their lawyers filed a lawsuit today... Here is a press release... >>Complaint Filed on Behalf of San Diego Firefighters Forced to Participate in San Diego’s “Gay Pride†Parade Tue, Aug 28, 2007 ANN ARBOR, MI – The Thomas More Law Center, a national public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, announced today that its West Coast Director, San Diego area attorney, Charles LiMandri, filed a sexual harassment and freedom of speech complaint in California state court on behalf of four respected San Diego firefighters. Charles LiMandri was also the Thomas More Law Center’s lead counsel in the successful Mt. Soledad Cross case in San Diego. In July, four San Diego firefighters were ordered, against their wishes, to participate in uniform on their city fire engine in San Diego’s annual “Gay Pride†parade. During the course of the ensuing three hour long ordeal, the firefighters were subjected to vile sexual taunts and gestures along the parade route. These firemen are devoted husbands and fathers. All four firemen are Christian and two are Catholic. Charles LiMandri explains filing the complaint in state court, “These men were sexually harassed in clear violation of San Diego’s sexual harassment code. Further, the California Constitution’s freedom of speech provision prohibits compelled speech. What the firefighters were ordered to do was endorse what goes on at this parade through their participation in it.†Brian Rooney, spokesman for the Law Center and former San Diego resident commented, “In one regard, forcing these firefighters to participate in this parade has removed the artificial veneer of legitimacy from this event to expose it for what it truly is—a temporary suspension of decency laws in the name of inclusion and diversity. The debauched and decadent conduct at this parade clearly violates municipal codes that prohibit public nudity and obscenity. The City has played make believe long enough.†Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center added, “There is a transvestite group dressed up as nuns that marches in this parade every year in crude mockery of the Catholic faith. No other religion would be treated this way. And for the City of San Diego to sponsor such an event and for its political leaders to endorse such behavior by their presence is outrageous. Two of the firefighters who are Catholic were forced to endorse such mockery of their faith by being forced to participate in the parade.†The so-called “gay pride†parade took place on July 21, 2007 in San Diego. On July 20, 2007, the four firefighters in question were told by their superiors that they would be participating in the parade. All four repeatedly protested that they did not wish to participate. On the morning of July 21, 2007, however, these same four firefighters were ordered to ride on a fire engine, in uniform, in the parade. LiMandri commented, “Our complaint will show that this is not the first time that firefighters were ordered into this parade against their will and complained to the fire department. One of the main reasons for this complaint is so that no firefighter will again be forced to participate in a parade that is so sexually charged that it creates a hostile work environment. The City should be concentrating the fire department’s efforts on working the parade and responding to emergencies, not putting these brave firefighters on parade to be sexually harassed.†LiMandri went on to say, “We want a new policy for the Fire Department that will explicitly state that no firefighter will be ordered in the future into this type of parade again against his or her will.†The Thomas More Law Center defends and promotes the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life through education, litigation, and related activities. It does not charge for its services. The Law Center is supported by contributions from individuals, corporations and foundations, and is recognized by the IRS as a section 501(c)(3) organization. You may reach the Thomas More Law Center at (734) 827-2001 or visit our website at www.thomasmore.org. <<
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 I couldn't have explained the Thomas More Law Center better myself. I doubt that they have any awareness of how their own "press release" discredits themselves.
Originally Posted By debtee ^You took the words right out of my mouth Inspector! <The Thomas More Law Center defends and promotes the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life through education, litigation, and related activities.> Says it all about what this complaint is really about!
