Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Not that it matters here, but I have to agree with Doobie on post #34. I enjoy this board and spend a lot of time reading and contributing to it, but my goodness it is so frustrating that some people can never seem to find anything at all positive about Disney, yet continue to call themselves fans. Why bother, I wonder! All of us know, or I think we do, is that Disney is a fantasy company. It survives on stroking the good feelings and bringing them to the surface. We can sit here and pick things apart forever because everything we are dealing with has a "human" connection somewhere, so finding something to fault does not take a lot of talent. Once any group of people takes a fun situation and acts as if it were a life or death situation, they manage to suck the fun completely out of it for everyone else. They still enjoy it because their (non-mental health issues) are somehow normal human behavior whereas anyone a little bit positive has need of immediate psychiatric over site. I do tire of it myself because I believe that Disney will end up wherever it belongs. If it wasn't smart enough to draw paying crowds and staying at the top or near top of the theme park world, well, I guess all those high paid execs will have to find new places to ruin. That said, however, that hasn't happened yet in spite of gloom and doom, bad economy or Harry Potter. I get frustrated at discussions of how nothing new has happened at WDW since Walt died. Walt died long before WDW ever existed and yet they have managed to fill four parks (4) with shows, attractions and fun without his almighty leadership. And heaven forbid something changes...OMG...the sky is falling. To those that are the opposite of Fanbois, who by their description are people that think that everything that Disney does is wonderful we have the other spectrum...nothing that Disney does is right. They could bring them a truckload of Gold bars and they would complain that the gold didn't have the proper hue and send it back. Complaints of maintenance failure abounds. Not like the old days, you hear. Well in the old days that stuff was new and didn't require as much maintenance, now it does. Should they bulldoze the place down and start again? Do any of those complaining the loudest know how to fix the problem of maintaining acres of mechanical things and knowing what will break tomorrow so they can fix it tonight. No, I think not. The answer is always spend more money on it and do it by magic so that it will never cost us anything extra to experience it. Disney issues a stockholders report every year that detail the operating capital vs. the operating costs of running a theme park. I used to receive them back when I held some stock in the company. What I remember of it is that the actual gross income of a place like WDW was more than my feeble little mind could even picture...but that the expense was equally mind boggling. I, unlike others, will not pretend to comprehend what all those numbers mean, but large investors do...and if I am not hearing them screaming from the rooftops then I think it must be pretty much in line with where a for profit business should be. It is sometimes hard for people to understand the Disney is not a charity, non-profit. And it never was.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Goofy, your points are well taken, but Disney has been a better mid-term returner for financial investors than a long-term. That's not really good. The only people who are happy with the Disney stock are those who were able to get a lower basis after 1998. Anyone who simply held from the nineties through today is mightily unhappy. Short term investors in the company have won out over long term investors. The only saving grace for those long-term folks is any dividends paid and the ability to dilute their own basis by riskily overloading their portfolio with more Disney stock as a buying opportunity. --- Otherwise, I understand where you are coming from. I think a lot of the doom and gloom is also a counter balancing reaction to what has been (during these dark days at WDW) some over the top "everything is great" attitudes out there in the Disney internet universe. It insults a lot of folks, including me, and our sensibilities, to be lectured about how magical everything is when it isn't necessarily for us. That's not the insult though, it is when we are told not to visit anymore, not to be a fan anymore, not to care anymore, because we don't fall lock step into the idea that things have never been better. We have to turn in our fan i.d. card. The real insult is when that lecture and i.d. card request comes from a self-described Disney know-it-all, author, expert, whose first visit was in 2001. Does any of this excuse bad behavior? Never. But there are two sides to everything, and I guess this is the way I look at the doom and gloomers v. the defenders of mediocrity. I find that it also isn't always the same battle lines either. I enjoy watching people agree, or disagree, who otherwise agree with each on a lot of other issues. That's great discussion. You and I agree on FP, (and we get insults hurled at us), but probably don't agree on several things. That's neat. That's why discussion boards are fun. I'd rather enjoy differences than have the thought police come on positive or negative threads and lecture people for having an opinion.
Originally Posted By Doobie <<< The real insult is when that lecture and i.d. card request comes from a self-described Disney know-it-all, author, expert, whose first visit was in 2001. >>> While I have a hunch who you're referring to, I'm not certain. But unless that person is saying that on these boards, this is the kind of thing I'm referring to that I can't allow. But I'm leaving it as an example. And just to clarify - if someone wants to start a topic saying those who complain so much should stop coming - that's a perfect place to drop in and disagree and debate. It's when people just want to talk about the fun of Disney or just try to plan their trip, not the nitty gritty that I get bothered when those topics get derailed. Doobie.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Let the first among you who has not said anything negative about WDW cast the first stone! I really don't see what the deal is for voicing one's objection to some of the offerings at WDW. But, there is a difference between complaining and just being negative. I do however think there is a line in the sand and telling someone to vacation somewhere else is crossing that line.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I'm sure post #45 was in referrence to post #43. I think I slipped my post in there a little too quick....
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<It's when people just want to talk about the fun of Disney>> I'm all for that when the situation calls for it. But how many "Best Queues in WDW" or "Your Top 10 WDW Attractions" threads can you have before that's just as repetitive and annoying than the people bringing up the negatives? If there was something genuinely exciting going on at Disney, I'd be all for talking about it. But unfortunately I see and hear about more decline than good, and I'm just telling it like it is.
Originally Posted By Doobie <<< I'm all for that when the situation calls for it. But how many "Best Queues in WDW" or "Your Top 10 WDW Attractions" threads can you have before that's just as repetitive and annoying than the people bringing up the negatives? >>> As many as people want. Not everyone lives on the discussion boards. Not everyone lives Disney. So if someone wants to come on and start "Best Queue" topic even though it's been done 100 times before - so what. As a Disney fan, I like it. It means new people are discovering the company and parks I love and starting to dig a little deeper (and doing it at LP). I was there once - I suspect you were as well. Let them have their fun. If the company is going to disappoint them, they'll discover it soon enough. But if LP is only known as the place where fans come to learn why they shouldn't be happy with Disney ... that's not a good thing for the boards, IMHO. Doobie.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Doobie, I can only speak for myself. I can't imagine I have ever gone on a -everything positive- thread and rained on peoples' parade. At least never instigated a disruption. I would voice displeasure with anyone who would do such a thing. It's very easy to click "new topic" so there is plenty of room on here for all sorts of discussions. It's very easy to ignore discussions, both positive and negative, if one know that the content might be upsetting. I rather someone just not click, then come on and start being the thought police. Because of this view, I would never do it myself, and I would be critical of those who do. My comment above was in abstract and in no way targeting a specific person or website. For that reason, I would always hope that it would be allowed to be shown as my opinion. Not fact, but my opinion. While I can be critical of folks who work at WDI, I feel I am always critical towards their professional efforts and public conversations, rather than their personal lives. I have no issue with anything going on over here. If I do, it is pretty easy to leave. I think you run a great site, and are fair with the moderation on here. 'Happy to be apart of your community.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>As many as people want. Not everyone lives on the discussion boards. Not everyone lives Disney. So if someone wants to come on and start "Best Queue" topic even though it's been done 100 times before - so what. As a Disney fan, I like it. It means new people are discovering the company and parks I love and starting to dig a little deeper (and doing it at LP). I was there once - I suspect you were as well. Let them have their fun. If the company is going to disappoint them, they'll discover it soon enough. But if LP is only known as the place where fans come to learn why they shouldn't be happy with Disney ... that's not a good thing for the boards, IMHO. << Doobie. I had not read your comments until after my post. I would concur with your sentiments. Very well said. Better than I could put it. I have no issue with any positive stuff, just want the ability to share my own perspective.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> And frankly, some people just prefer to try to maintain a positive site because it's what they enjoy having. It's not like there's a shortage of places to go complain. It's their site and their right. We're not journalists here. Doobie<<< First, thanks for you words, and approach. Taking the time out to actually talk is a class act on your part, and I REALLY appreciate that. And I fully understand what you posed and I quoted. It's just the manner in which it is done. Everything is hush-hush, secretive and volatile. It's like bullying your posters (not "yours", I mean "their's", speaking hypothetically..) to be overly positive and agree. Everything would much easier if things were out in the open. LOL.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>The libel and speculation came when discussing certain people in the fan community.<<< Certain people that actually DO those things? There was name calling, yes, but most of that was the truth. If I sum up your opinions here, in this thread, is that libel? No. It's not. It's just a list of the things that I think you think. And that's exactly what we did. And if you are worried about "offending" them, they are "public" figures in this community. They put themselves out there, and with that comes analysis. They do much of the same, I need not remind you of that.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Your site, Doobie, is one of the rare exceptions. It allows for a healthy amount of criticism for all things Disney. Most fan sites do not, pure and simple.<<< Seconded!
Originally Posted By WDWVacationer <<Certain people that actually DO those things? There was name calling, yes, but most of that was the truth. If I sum up your opinions here, in this thread, is that libel? No. It's not. It's just a list of the things that I think you think. And that's exactly what we did. And if you are worried about "offending" them, they are "public" figures in this community. They put themselves out there, and with that comes analysis. They do much of the same, I need not remind you of that.>> The assumption often made in that thread is that those who have high opinions of Disney constantly are in the Mouse's pocket. While this can be true, and is in some cases, I feel in some cases in that thread, the person's right to opinion was violated. I'm not worried about offending them. The potentially false claims and assumptions that lead to name calling are the biggest issues in this community. And I know what you are talking about in terms of analysis of online personalities, and you know I have fought that multiple times with a certain someone. And the same stuff I've fought in other places around the web was happening there. While I appreciate the undeniable truths in that thread, I resent the potentially false assumptions.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>The assumption often made in that thread is that those who have high opinions of Disney constantly are in the Mouse's pocket. While this can be true, and is in some cases, I feel in some cases in that thread, the person's right to opinion was violated.<<< How? The people in question are PUBLIC. We have every right (Doobie allowing) to speculate, as you say, on their dealings. Which, IMO, look to be concurrent with the evils of social media- controlling the message.
Originally Posted By WDWVacationer I just don't think its right to take it to a personal level. If you have a problem or suspicion with the way they do business, that's fine. But to make assumptions and say things that were said based on how they conduct their online business on a personal level is not.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I just don't think its right to take it to a personal level. If you have a problem or suspicion with the way they do business, that's fine. But to make assumptions and say things that were said based on how they conduct their online business on a personal level is not.<<< It's not personal if a personality is conducting "business". And goodness knows that these people don't treat us with the same common courtesy as we treat them.
Originally Posted By Doobie As you said EPCOT E., you may have every right to speculate on such motivations and individuals, but you don't have every right to do it on this site and that is where I'm drawing the admittedly-hard-to-define line. Doobie.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer Perfectly fine and understood. Thanks for defining it, Doobie. We appreciate it. And I appreciate your fast handiwork on other matters, too... Don't think I've seen a thread disappear that fast!
