Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I can only hope with d23 coming up that there will be interesting discussion around the corner.<<< Hopefully. I could be a lot of fluff that never gets done... or.. it could actually be substantial. I don't think very many people know of what is actually going to get done from what they tell us.
Originally Posted By lazyboy97o <<The only way social media will "destroy society" as some seem to be implying is by shortening our collective attention spans and making us even more addicted to our electronic devices. Of course, people derided internet forums for the same thing at one time, and now they're being lauded for being the "better" type of interaction.>> And before that television was the ridiculous new thing that was debasing meaningful content provided via radio, which debased meaningful content provided via newspapers. One day social media will be usurped by something else and people will talk about social media is the dying, but more credible format.
Originally Posted By asianway Not sure if it was referenced in either thread, but this weekend, I was introduced to the Erik Qualman "Social Media Revolution" series of vids on youtube. All I could think of was these threads and the incentive any corporation might have to spin their image in a positive light. Good series, you should all check them you if you didnt already.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I don't even know what to say anymore.>> Bingo!!! Frankly, I'm not sure that even I do, which may really be the whole point. Muddy the waters until no one can see a thing, and then they'll go swim elsewhere. It's all about derailing a train ... a train of thought. And focusing that either elsewhere or simply taking it to the Land of Confusion. That is the problem folks. That is the hinge on which the door swings. Social Media exists as a method of message control that does not translate well from the individual to the corporate citizen. There is simply no way of escaping the Big Brother aspect that does more than permeate the medium, it is the very feed on which it survives. Get the message, stay on message, and spread the message. I have been thinking about the hollow example of the movie reviewer being 'influenced' to write a positive review by being given a free ticket to see the same. How odd that then one does not likewise feel receiving tens of thousands of dollars in Disney vacations and VIP experiences does not influence the blogger/podcaster/recipient ... To me, this is not a tenable position. It isn't logical. Much like Social Media is not, ultimately as employed by corporations, a tenable or legitimate medium for communication. It is, now anyhow, largely public relations for the big player as well as the small. And with the increasing presence of the big player, it has devolved quickly into pure -- and,yes, undecorated -- propaganda. Only, it is clearly propaganda to the trained eye. To the few out there who know and can look deeper. Few of us can, few of us have the time or inclination. But, maybe we should look at an entirely non-Disney example. Let's say, for the purpose of this post, your neighbor just pulled into his driveway with a shiny new car. We'll call it 'Brand Y'. You congratulate him on the purchase. He tells you all about the wonderful Brand Y in his driveway. You've known the fellow next door for several years now. He picks up your mail when you go on vacation, takes in the newspaper. He has a key to your house. So, yeah, you have every reason to trust him. And, yeah, you begin to think 'if he's wowed by this Brand Y, why aren't I?' Well, he tells you all of the many reasons you should be. Hits on all the legitimately good features Brand Y delivers. Tells you why you TOO should drive BRAND Y. Hell, your buddy from next door even links you online to this incredible blog that expounds the virtues of Brand Y and why EVERYONE should be driving BRAND Y. You look around, you do your own due diligence. You buy a Brand Y for yourself. Then, you find out about all of the many shortcomings of BRAND Y. And you begin to ask yourself why you bought the darn car anyway. Why did you need to have a BRAND Y ... ? Only then do you learn your neighbor did NOT buy BRAND Y. BRAND Y was a gift from the company to promote BRAND Y. To sell as many of his 'friends' and 'connections' on BRAND Y. Moreover, because BRAND Y is a powerhouse in the industry, all of the information you had access to online and in your sphere of influence was filtered, edited, censored to satisfy and artificially prop-up BRAND Y. You had FACTS ... but just the facts BRAND Y wished you to see and in the context the company wanted you to see them in. Now, not only are you stuck with BRAND Y, you have five years of payments to make on a mistake that was brought about by underhanded, devious means. After all, you were not even in the market for a car. Much less a BRAND Y. You were sold, or conned, by your belief in the 'friendship' you had with your neighbor. When you enter a BRAND Y dealership, you know you're getting a sales pitch. But when you're chatting with your neighbor at a weekend BBQ? Given that, given that your neighbor who sold you on a BRAND Y was not a consumer of BRAND Y but in reality a stealth sales agent for BRAND Y, would you not feel taken advantage of? Really, to all those reading, would you not feel like the dupe, the patsy? Now, take BRAND Y and replace it with Disney or any major brand. That is the disease that is Social Media in 2011. To all those lavishing themselves in the Disney lifestyle, a great purge is coming. Companies like and including Disney, as the medium matures, will be looking to strike down the overwhelming majority of these home cooked businesses built on the back of other businesses. LP.com should survive. Could survive. As someone who has a healthy bit of knowledge in the newer medium and traditional media, I would say it stands a fighting chance. That's why these words appear here and nowhere else. That said, in my educated opinion, there needs to be a most delicate balancing. <<I want to be on the positive because it makes me happy and it attracts the kind of readers I want to attract and frankly - IT'S DISNEY - and even if they double the price and stop maintaining for six months - yes, it's not as good as it used to be, but it's still Disney and chances are, I'll still love it.>> To all those reading along, is there really any more that needs to be said? "Welcome to BRAND Y...?"
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>To all those reading along, is there really any more that needs to be said? "Welcome to BRAND Y...?" MM I don't think so. You summed it up well. And it's why I don't think it is very harmful to echo a buyer-beware discussion. Without a doubt, in some absurd way, there are those who only get their information to form their decision making with through formal channels. Just as there are still who buy directly from DVC for $125 a point v. resale at $70 a point. Some consumers simply do not perform their due diligence. Now, those very same people who would benefit from a buyer-beware discussion would never find themselves on here anyways. So with that said, this topic isn't that appealing to me outside of updates on the current shtick Disney is employing through their communication channels. Now that, I find entertaining.
Originally Posted By Doobie <<< I have been thinking about the hollow example of the movie reviewer being 'influenced' to write a positive review by being given a free ticket to see the same. How odd that then one does not likewise feel receiving tens of thousands of dollars in Disney vacations and VIP experiences does not influence the blogger/podcaster/recipient ... >>> You miss my point. I do NOT think the movie reviewer will, in most cases, write a more positive review because of the free ticket. Similarly, I do NOT think the fansite will be more positive because of the freebies. I think they will be more positive because it's who they are, but not because Disney is buying them off. After all, there have been fansites being unabashedly positive about Disney long before Disney paid these fansites any mind whatsoever. Your post above melds multiple points - 1) is it smart for Disney to do this? 2) Can people trust fansites? 3) Are fansites honest (similar but not the same as #2). 4) Will Disney putting an end to all this? I see that these have some relation but - at least in the post above - I just don't follow all of your logic and particularly your conclusion. My statement would've been the same whether Disney gave me free stuff or not. That is a fact. I know I can't prove it to anyone because you're not in my mind, but nevertheless, I know it's a fact. I love Disney and therefore I run this website and all that comes with it (positive and negative), not the reverse. My statement wasn't meant to imply Disney can do whatever they want and I'd love them. It means that even at twice the price and less maintenance I'd still find it better than the competition. I go to Universal and Sea World often and have been to Busch Tampa many times but not recently. To me there's still no comparison - it's not even close. I realize your mileage may vary, but I'm speaking honestly for myself. For the things that are important to _me_ and the experiences _I_ want to have, Disney is still head and shoulders above the rest. I've stayed at Portofino at Universal - maybe the nicest room I've stayed in in Orlando - I'd still rather stay at WDW. The Kitchen at Hard Rock has the best Mac and Cheese I've ever had and I eat there often. I'd still rather eat at Disney most times. Not because they buy me off or because they can do no wrong, but because it's where I prefer to be. I like the Disney look, I like the characters, I like the background music, I like the clientele, I like the friendly cast - the things that make Disney truly special to _me_ are things that Universal and Sea World don't have and I'm not even sure they want to have. I'm glad Universal is doing great, competition is a wonderful thing and as I wrote in a couple of articles, I actually became a Potter fan solely from my love of the Wizarding World. But for me, it's still not Disney. For others it's better and I'm happy for them and for Universal. And that's why I love Brand Y. It's not an unconditional love, but they've got a long way to go to lose it. Doobie.
Originally Posted By Doobie As an aside I recently saw a movie called "The Jonses" which is similar to the scenario 74 describes above. The fake family is employed by the company to move into an affluent new town, make friends, be the envy of the neighborhood and get everyone to purchase the products they're representing. A good (not great) film but interesting in its relationship to this topic. Doobie.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Doobie, When reading the social media examples, I never think of you or lp.com. I don't even think of wdwmagic or mouseplanet. I really, really enjoyed your summary of the changes you like and do not like on the Cruise line. I have never went on a Disney cruise, and your summary came across as highly credible because you shared your unvarnished opinion. I knew your background and predisposition, and it only made the summary come across as more substantial to me as a reluctant prospective customer. I say this because I think everyone should be judged by their own history, predisposition, and current attempts to be relevant in the Disney internet circle. The whole group of webmasters and podcasters should never be lumped together and I think that is where your point of view and Spirit's point of view are not finding common ground. Just my observation, coming from someone who really is not very passionate about this issue. I would lump what Michael did at Mouseinfo into the early stages of Disney Social Media. Especially when "Marcie" showed up only to respond to Al Lutz postings. I liked Michael, but I knew that he aimed to please TDA, unashamedly and publicly, so I never could consider his opinion or site's opinion very strongly. I could Laughingplace.com though. I very much could absorb editorial opinions from Laughingplace.com I could solely for the way you and your staff positioned the site during that era. Now, you were just as positive as Michael. You liked DCA just as much. However, lp.com came across as credible to me and mouseinfo did not. So, I don't think it is as cut and dry as no one tries to please the Mouse, no one tries to get free-bees, because Doobie is above it all, so everyone else must be too. Nor, do I think you are the exception to the rule. Like I said, I have nothing but good things to say about a lot of other sites. Some of the current podcasters have gotten to where they are for their PR efforts that are wholly in lockstep and aligned with the Mouse. That's what I believe. I also believe you, as someone in the trenches, when you indicate that a lot of this is superficial. Truth is more than likely in the middle.
Originally Posted By Doobie I agree and that's kind of my point. I have absolutely no doubt there are fansites/podcasters/etc out there that have no goal other than to publish content to make Disney happy so they can start/continue to get goodies from Disney. I have no doubt at all. But I would never assume in any particular case that anyone is doing that because there are a myriad of other reasons they could be publishing that same content including it being their 100% honest opinion, their desire to obtain readers, their desire to please their non-Disney advertisers, their desire to make themselves happy by focusing on the positive, etc. My frustration comes from the assumption I feel many are making that the correlation of freebies and positive content is the same as causation which I'm just as certain it is not in the majority of cases. I KNOW it's not for me. I KNOW it's not for the webmasters and podcasters I personally know well. I see no reason to believe it would be different for most of those I don't know well.. Doobie.
Originally Posted By njDizfan Social Media has totally blurred the gray area between propoganda and advertisement. It's almost impossible to insulate yourself from someone else's hidden agenda. When you are dealing with a company like Disney,the extensive number of fansites are often watered down for fear of future or current financial gain. I know a few posters who are afraid of telling the unabashed truth because they either are or want to be CMs or discretely have a business based on a Disney business. It all seems so innocent but it still hinders free discussion
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I like the point the em brought up that we put these bloggers on the same level playing field as legit Disney fan sponcered website when they are not equal or legit. I'm going to have to reserve personal judgement on just how "credible" I'm going to find some bloggers. And I'm always skeptical about people who are over enthusiastic about anything. Like comparing ones enjoyment with Disney to a "marriage".
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Social Media has totally blurred the gray area between propoganda and advertisement. It's almost impossible to insulate yourself from someone else's hidden agenda. <<< Did it, though? I think it's the same thing, under Disney. They control the message, feedback, everything. Everything can be seen as "good" to them, if they so want. And that's a massive mismanagement. They should use it to GAUGE thought, not control.
Originally Posted By njDizfan Definately it's the same within known Disney realms but when supposedly independent voices are getting massaged by TWDC you need your foil hat to circumnavigate around the web.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Definately it's the same within known Disney realms but when supposedly independent voices are getting massaged by TWDC you need your foil hat to circumnavigate around the web.<<< Yep, and that's a shame.
Originally Posted By lazyboy97o It always amazes me how much the word propaganda has been vilified to the point that it is something separate and more than it is, "ideas or informations spread to promote or injure a cause, nation, etc." (dictionary.com). All good advertising is propaganda. Any blog that features a person espousing his ideas is propaganda. These threads are almost all propaganda. Disney will never be able to dominate the message because it really is quite easy to start your own platform. If you have something interesting to say then people will listen.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom << If you have something interesting to say then people will listen.>> Time is valuable and if someone is reading " and believing garbage" then that is what they are going to believe. Take the new Disney resort mugs..... I'm sure all the blogger Moms are out there saying it's such a good thing and how wonderful it is that Disney is using the newest, kewlest technology so that visitors can have a "Magical" WDW experience. Meanwhile the message that is NOT getting out is that some of us still have our Dixie Landing mugs and were told when we bought them that we could bring them back to the resort and get refills for life ( which is the God's honest truth ). And then somehow we are painted out by the blogger Moms to be evil soda theifs and part of why Disney is loosing money and behaving as if we are part of some sinister criminal enterprise. Which is exactly what I'm seeing posted on some "other" promient Disney fan website. Implying that we are somehow in the wrong and the root of all evil at WDW. How about being honest? Or an attempt at allowing other "guests" their say instead of trivializing their statements and painting them out to be criminals. At some point these bloggers have to ask themselves if they are simply being a "tool".
Originally Posted By lazyboy97o I am not sure how the soda issue relates aside from showing that there are people who are more supportive of an organization for varying degrees of reasoning. Some do say it's best because Disney says it and others think it best based on their examination. I cannot say if they are cheering Disney for reneging on previously sold lifetime beverage offerings as I do not tend to follow the soda issue and have no person experience of the time on which to rely.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom My point about the Disney mugs is that often with bloggers only one voice is being heard. No additional information is being solicited or recognized. It's a one sided conversation. Even though ( in the case of the Disney resort mugs ) the alternative conversation may be correct.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>It always amazes me how much the word propaganda has been vilified to the point that it is something separate and more than it is, "ideas or informations spread to promote or injure a cause, nation, etc." (dictionary.com). All good advertising is propaganda. Any blog that features a person espousing his ideas is propaganda. These threads are almost all propaganda.<<< It comes with a connotation that isn't positive. But yes, you are correct.
