Originally Posted By Labuda "I grew up on the South Side of Chicago" OMG! DAVE! Did you know Leroy Brown?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>My state drinking age is 21.<< There is no more state specific drinking age, I think. It's 21 across the boards, as far as I know. < WRONG Here is Illinois' and it is clearly 18. also including rules for furnishing alcohol to those not of age. <a href="http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/stateprofiles/StateProfie.asp#UAFR" target="_blank">http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa .nih.gov/stateprofiles/StateProfie.asp#UAFR</a> here are the legal age limits per state - and you may disagree with them, but they are still the law <a href="http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/stateprofiles/" target="_blank">http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa .nih.gov/stateprofiles/</a>
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And dad55, I feel what you are saying so don't think I am taking it lightly. I just can't imagine seeing coffins lined up with young ones in there. That would haunt me forever. Such a sad story for all.< trust me, it changes ones life forever.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <So once again the teens who drank did not drive so why mess with the parent so aggressively. Now, the 26 year old driver is the one who should be held accountable. In this story supplying youths the alcohol had nothing to do with their deaths. < not how I view it - the owner supplied the alcohol to the teens who then had no sense whether to get into a car at 2AM with another person as drunk as they were - that alcohol also supplied by the same person as part of an 'event' - also how the state prosecutor sees it. In a community where we lost 3 others not a few years before to a repeat drunk driving offender ( one girl was the daughter of a state circuit court judge ) and stricter laws have been passed since named after the first 3 girls -- I think this guy is hosed - just my opinion....and no I do not feel sorry for him at all. He chose to do what he did, this was no party when he was out of town, or something he was unaware of - he chose the path.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <"I grew up on the South Side of Chicago" OMG! DAVE! Did you know Leroy Brown? < that pool shootin' son of a gun......he was my bud !
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 /// the owner supplied the alcohol to the teens who then had no sense whether to get into a car at 2AM with another person as drunk as they were/// I have to admit you do have a solid point with that one. With that in mind the parent does share some culpability after all.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 And Mr. X and Clint -- trust me , I am not trying to argue for the sake of argument, or Clint your views of when you view kids as adults or criticize in any way how Japan treats open alcohol, -- I don't know that that wouldn't work here....but history here seems to show us as so much more of a violent society than Japan ( average citzenry behavior) - that I am not sure relaxing laws here works either. Sometimes sane people do real stupid things when blind drunk. Some people handle alcohol better than others... Times have changed my view of alcohol abuse and ages of involvement. Being the parents of two girls will do that -- seeing 9 kids no older than 16 die in 4 years due to alcohol related driving will do that --knowing that one of my daughters college teammates is paralyzed today after a drunk driving accident in the Ozarks a month ago - and also seeing the warning signs that something bad was going to happen with that girl and being able to do nothing about it will do that -- seeing numerous kids throw away full ride college scholarships because it is 'cool' to get wasted at some party where no one gives a rats behind about you will do that..... I just view things differently than I once did -- maybe it makes me right, maybe it doesn't, but it's my view at present.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 </// the owner supplied the alcohol to the teens who then had no sense whether to get into a car at 2AM with another person as drunk as they were/// I have to admit you do have a solid point with that one. With that in mind the parent does share some culpability after all.< in the interviews with siblings - a few of these kids ( not all) drank for the first time at this party - which is why some wanted to go home- they were wretchedly sick...never having been in the state they were, they could make no rational decision at all -- they were even willing to risk their parents wrath to get home when they were ill. And again, I know some of the cases you speak of where people try and extort $$ for any circumstance from others. The suburb I live in is one of the wealthiest and surrounding ones are well off, but not the same level - and there is a lot of animosity sometimes about the 'rich kids' so to speak. This is not the case here as homeowner really has no money to speak of - this is about parental anger - as no amount of money would have eased their loss anyway.
Originally Posted By MPierce Well for everybody who thinks it's OK to be cool, and allow drinhing in your home, I suggest you check your state laws. In Texas a minor in possesion of, caught consuming as weel as minors intoxicated in public can be charged with a class c misdemeanor. You could face a fine up to $500, you are subject to alcohol awareness class, 8-40 hours community service, driver license denial or suspension 30-180 days. If a minor is 17 years of age or older, they are subject to a $250-$2000 fine, and up to 180 days in jail on their third conviction. Adults or minors caught providing alcohol to minors are subject to a fine of up to $4000 or up to 1 year in jail or both. Upon conviction your driver license will be suspended for 180 days. If you are the parent or legal guardian you may provide alcohol to your child. However I'm sure there might be some age limit on that I don't know. As far as the sex goes, I guess that is based on a persons views on morality or their lack there of. Thank you Spirit of 74 for starting this thread. It has certainly been an eye opener on much broader issues than just refillable mugs.
Originally Posted By Mr X VBDad, that is a terrible tragedy, and like Clint I want to assure you that I'm not making light of it in any way. It's so sad that guy didn't have the presence of mind to tell all the kids to just crash at his place (what the heck, it was already 2am anyway!). But in any case, it's pretty obvious that he shouldn't have been giving alcohol to kids. And enough to get them stupid drunk to boot?? I mean, that doesn't sound like he just allowed them to drink a beer, does it?? >>Well for everybody who thinks it's OK to be cool, and allow drinhing in your home, I suggest you check your state laws.<< Again, I don't think it's okay to give MINORS alcohol in your home or anything. I just don't think you should be held responsible for serving to ADULTS as in the case of Clint, since they are adults and supposedly capable of making their own decisions. That's where I think the American style of "blame someone! sue them!" goes too far.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< "I recently bought something at Radio Shack and the clerk made a special effort to point out on the receipt that although they have a 30-day return policy on most items, the particular item I purchased was not covered by this because of past abuse and was not returnable" Is that legal? >>> Why wouldn't it be legal? There's no law in most states (any state?) that requires a business to refund money for returned merchandise. Usually the only requirement is that the return policy be disclosed to the consumer at the time of the purchase, which is why you often see signs near the cash register and/or the policy printed on the receipt. In my case, the receipt said something to the effect of NO RETURNS FOR THIS ITEM and the salesperson pointed this out to me. There's nothing stopping a store from having a policy of NO RETURNS for everything if they wanted to do so (it probably wouldn't be good for business in the long run, which is why you rarely see this). The cases that I'm aware of where there's a mandatory "return" policy (really, the ability to back out of the contract) based on the law are situations like door-to-door sales, telemarketing, or timeshare sales. For the first two, the salesman initiates the sale, and it's recognized that people might be caught off guard and make a rash decision. Timeshares are in a category by themselves, especially when they are sold the old-fashioned way with the pressure sale presentation. But generally speaking, if you go of your own accord into a retail store and buy something, you don't have a right to return purchases unless the store policy provides for that.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< There is no more state specific drinking age, I think. It's 21 across the boards, as far as I know. < WRONG Here is Illinois' and it is clearly 18. also including rules for furnishing alcohol to those not of age. <a href="http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa" target="_blank">http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa</a> .nih.gov/stateprofiles/StateProfie.asp#UAFR here are the legal age limits per state - and you may disagree with them, but they are still the law <a href="http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa" target="_blank">http://www.alcoholpolicy.niaaa</a> .nih.gov/stateprofiles/ >>> vbdad55: I'm not sure if you've just mis-read those charts, or if you're taking things out of context on purpose. As far as I can tell, the minimum age for purchase, possession, and consumption of alcohol is 21 in all states (this didn't used to be the case, but in the mid-80's states had to change or risk losing federal highway funds). What varies by state are exceptions to the rule for things like consumption in the home or consumption in a restaurant with the presence of a parent. But absent one of those exceptions, it's 21 in all states. If you go to Illinois in the first link you provide, there is a chart that lists 18 in several situations. But if you read carefully, that's the age at which it's legal to be the one SELLING the alcohol, such as by being a waiter, bartender, or cashier. You still have to be 21 in Illinois to buy it.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<<>>And if it's done in your house, legally you are responsible for their actions.<< I don't buy that crap.>>>> True in Massachusetts at least. And if you're driving a car, get stopped for whatever reason, and one of your passengers has pot or whatever illegal on them, YOU AS THE DRIVER ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE. Saw in today's paper, Japan is trying to get a car that won't start if it thinks you are over the alcohol legal level. Toyota I think. Some sensor in the steering wheel.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>And if you're driving a car, get stopped for whatever reason, and one of your passengers has pot or whatever illegal on them, YOU AS THE DRIVER ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE.<< I don't buy that either. It might be the law, but it's a bad law. It's unjust. WHY should I be responsible for someone else? How is it my responsibility if a passenger in my car happens to have drugs on them? What is a person supposed to do, strip search all their passengers? Would it make any difference if you ASKED the person if they had anything illegal on them and they answered "no"? Bad law. SuperDry, I thought the same thing (about those stats), particularly the laws about 18 year olds being able to sell alcohol (cashier or whatever). I really think that it's 21 across the boards. I did a lot of travelling in the early 90's when I was 18-19, and I'm reasonably sure that if there was an under 21 state, everyone would have talked about it and we surely would have been drinking there (I was in Illinois, and lots of other midwestern states)! In fact, when we went to Canada that was the big hype, to go get a beer in a bar legally, as the drinking age was 19 (18?) and we were all "legal". VBDad, I think you might be wrong on this one.
Originally Posted By MPierce Well Mr X you might think it's a bad law, but it's still the law. When it comes to drugs of any kind a politican is going to vote for strict controls of it, right or wrong. I understand what you are saying, but don't you think if an adult gives a minor alcohol that is against the law. If you break the law aren't you legally responsible for the acts that were committed by the minor with your help?
Originally Posted By Mr X There are lots of stupid laws MPierce. I have already said several times that giving alcohol to a minor is wrong, didn't I? That's a whole different argument. My point is that I am not responsible for the actions of some other ADULT.
Originally Posted By MPierce If you are talking about a person over 21 years of age I agree with you. I thought we were talking about minors. However the law is vague enough in this area that you can be sued for contributing to a persons action. If the person doing the sueing can win is a whole other subject. People have successfully sued bars for serving people who are already intoxicated. That's really a tough call though.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <VBDad, I think you might be wrong on this one.< legal drinking age ( forget the ability to purchase) varies by state - as do the laws with 'furnishing' alcohol - "Parent/guardian¡ª23 states permit parents and legal guardians to provide alcohol to their minor children or wards. ¡ñ Legal-aged spouse¡ªeight states allow a person age 21 years or older to provide alcohol to his or her underage spouse. ¡ñ Religious services¡ªnine states permit alcohol to be served to minors in connection with religious services. 1 Note that these exceptions apply to noncommercial furnishers of alcohol. States that have these exceptions, by implication, prohibit" <a href="http://www.nllea.org/reports/ABCEnforcementLegalResearch.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nllea.org/reports/A BCEnforcementLegalResearch.pdf</a>
