Originally Posted By Skellington88 As bad word of mouth spreads customers will opt to take their business elsewhere. This attitude that "regular customers dont care" is disturbing. So let's keep declining in quality until people stop coming? That's the attitude that brought down General Motors and Ford and is slowly bringing down Walmart! Once the attendance goes down it will be EXTREMLY difficult to get those people to come and stop saying bad things.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Moving slightly from topic, I would have to comment that Timekeeper had no line because there has never been an attraction at WDW that was better hidden from the public than TK. Never really promoted, just a small sign at it's entrance and doomed from the start. If they would have used half the promo for TK that they have for Monsters Inc. I would bet that TK would still be there. It would never have the appeal of SM but it would have had it's own audience. Those that appreciated humor and had the ability to still have brain function when not in a seated position. Back to topic<< Goofy. I completely agree with everything you said. It's very subversive. But that shouldn't take away from my point that SM is still in demand compared to newer attractions like TimeKeeper.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Lee, Thank you for your input. I agree with almost everything you said. Especially on why it is unneccessary to bring HMH to Orlando. I would say that when WDW only had one park they didn't have a problem with much more exhaustive rehabs than we see today. And this is spread among four parks. It's all about managing the guests - and this managment team simply can't do it. They are extremely reactive. Maybe if MK had received an additional E Ticket since Splash closing Haunted Mansion wouldn't have been such a big deal. Again, it's about managing the customer and their expectations. Not reacting to them and then trying to manipulate them. Please don't take my deviation from your overall point wrong. It certainly was much easier to do those exhaustive refurbishments in the 70s and even 80s when there was an off-season. Disney has certainly been successful at filling in the gaps, so to speak, in the calendar. I just wished they would "react" and adjust accordingly with park hours, staffing, capacity, etc.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I'm much more concerned about women, and children being forced to stand on a moving bus. If that happens in value season I dread to think what it would be like during peak.<< You have no idea. Again, keep building DVC units and keep encouraging others to build more rooms on property. Who cares about the actual infrustructure and labor that needs to support all of those additional bodies. Maybe like HKDL they will sooner or later learn that not all growth is good.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>It's not my fave, but they certainly did do a great job of keeping the original vibe, but also modernizing ... that's what I'm looking for at MK.<< Okay, I minunderstood you then Spirit. I thought you wanted a radically changed Space Mountain. I took that from your mention of DLP's Space. I agree, it needs a thorough update ala Disneyland. Certainly an overhaul of the track system. I just would hate to lose it's layout and the queue/post show layout. Luckily, I don't think we will lose them. I do hope that we get more than a dusting. >><<They just don't make them like this anymore.>> Uhm ... yeah. The same could be said for any WDW attraction of late with the exception of Everest (and possibly Nemo at the Seas).<< Well, I don't know. As great as Everest is, as great as Splash is, the first 12 years of WDW rides, for me, offered a little bit more sophistication. It's hard to describe through typing, but I do believe the entire Space Mountain team along with John Hench really did something 'larger' with it's design. Not counting the Future World attractions which of course opened afterwords - MK's Space Mountain always kind of represented to me the ending of WED design by the "film" guys (who had past duties in different areas of the studio) and the begining of WED design by the "theme park" guys. Not historically accurate, but close enough. >>Yeah. Darkness what a concept. I wonder what percentage of SM riders actually remember when you rode thru an almost pitch-dark mountain? Likely not many because it hasn't been that way in over 15 years now.<< I certainly do, and that's one of the many reasons it is easy to communicate with you. On my last visit I was completely void of emotion after seeing how bright it was. I was reaching for my sunglasses. I don't know if it is simply sloppy operations, a poor choice in lighting additions/upgrades by the Florida & Glendale technocrats, or even Disney legal, but the brightness was beyond acceptable. >><<Or are you taking a page out of Jay's playbook, Spirit, and putting more importance on having 30 identical Space Mountains all across the globe?>> I think you know better than that. My only complain about DL's SM is that they stuck the same exact version in HK. It would be nice if there were five different versions around the globe.<< I know, I felt like spicing things up. I will concur that it is VERY important to WDW to keep as many unique rides as possible in this era of cloning. WDW's Space Mountain, Tower of Terror, Spaceship Earth, Everest, are all rides that need to keep their individuallity. They've lost too many attractions already that were one-of-a-kind. >>Just one last thought ... after the great job WDI did of refreshing Small World have you seen how Phil Holmes and crew have maintained the attraction?<< Yes. From my trips since it reopened I have experienced it twice. One when it first opened and then again on my most recent trip. It was very telling to me riding it a second time at how quickly some things have already become inoperable or dirty.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>It's also a sorry and convenient excuse for not adding the Mansion overlay when the money was on the table.<< I actually am happy this never took place. I have always thought they had enough serious things to contend with. The last thing I have wanted to see them do (since 2001) is spend more money on temporary events with no lasting benefit to the park. Besides, I hate saying it, but it wouldn't be -as- successful as it is with the DL guest. I think Lee really has had a point on the overlay issue. And it's the opposite train of thought that you and I have constantly argued against. This idea that all of the parks need to be as identical as possible. As long as there is serious need for funds around MK, and as long as the less discriminating WDW guests keep packing the MK, I can't think it is wise to offer HMH.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >><<This is all part of the maintaining the classics project that WDI have implemented over the past few years. Use maintenance downtime to make some changes.>> I'd just like to see examples of WDW maintaining attractions because I must be missing it.<< I must admit that line also made me chuckle, not just for the fact that only (1) second-tier attraction so far has received it's LONG overdue TLC, but the idea of a program called "Maintaining the Classics" Between the systematic removal & the intentional sabotaging of, many classic attractions, now they want to "Maintain the Classics" Well, I hope they can get back to POTC at some point, because the result was far from "maintenance". Nemo was a huge improvement, but it was an improvement over a shuttered Omni-mover and a hacked up pavilion. I hope that SSE's update will be a resounding success.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>^^^^^^^^ if I wanted to a rocket start and inversions in the dark we already have that at RnRc -- let's not duplicate - and let's keep MK family friendly ride wise -- the other parks can have more modern ride systems and mild thrills as they do today - no problem<< Exactly. Great point.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Ask some CMs who work in monorails if you want an honest answer.<< Which is a whole other can of worms. The Monorail situation is FAR more DIRE. It was known when the Mark VIs were coming online with the Mark IVs that they weren't built to last as long as the IVs. Well, the clock has been ticking and you are going to see a FAR worse situation than what DL is currently going though. And considering at WDW they need the rails to prop up the room rates at the 3 lagoon resorts, well, they better get to work. It's one thing to dream and gossip about expansion, it's a whole other matter to just keep the current fleet in a satisfactory condition. I don't know how anyone can ride other modern Monorail systems and not cringe when riding on the decade-long neglected WDW monorail system.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >> I'm not convinced that MK has found the right balance in the past but the recent changes at iasw and POTC (and now HM) highlight that something has changed. Is it enough?<< No. Considering nothing of substance was done in fixing the existing POTC show scenes, characters, or ride environment. I am of high hope that Haunted Mansion will be sparkling when it opens again.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Sorry had the European Premiere of Ratatouille last night so couldn't respond to this until today.>> That's OK. Will there be a review on the film board? I hope to see it in the next 2-3 days, although I waited five weeks to see PoC:AWE and I think I enjoyed it more for waiting. <<It is a delicate balacing act between meeting guests' expectations and being able to take an E-ticket offline for a lengthy period for refurbishment and updating.>> See, I could buy this if Disney was concerned about exceeding (or is it now meeting behind the scenes?)guests' expectations when it came to so many other things ... like basic cleanliness, upkeep, show quality, fresh entertainment, new attractions that appeal to families and not just young children etc ... I don't see management giving a damn about any of that. Maintenance is just that. It's maintaning attractions in top show quality (and obviously keeping them safe). So if a certain number of guests complain about a closed Mansion, I just see absolutely no credibility to management using this as reason to allow the attraction to fall apart to begin with. <<I do not agree that MK management are putting guests' safety at risk as a significant amount of maintenance is done after-hours as has always been. Management do not have the ability to overrule safety closures. I'm sure you know that Spirit.>> I know that Space Mountain isn't in the condition it should be. I know what I've been told by people who should know. I won't ride it until they rehab it. Is it unsafe? I can't honestly answer that. But some insiders feel it may be, and frankly, I'd rather be safe than sorry. <<Disrepair/poor show is a different issue. I'm not convinced that MK has found the right balance in the past but the recent changes at iasw and POTC (and now HM) highlight that something has changed. Is it enough? I can't comment as I probably visit MK less than any other of the 11 parks in the world.>> I would say the fact you see all the parks regularly, much like our buddy TDLFAN, makes you more qualified than most here. I can only speak of the eight non-Asian parks I visit regularly, and while all suffer some degree of maintenance issues, which is to be expected, no park seems to have the sheer volume of issues ... constant ones ... that the MK has. Even attractions that were rehabbed of late, PoC and Small World, have issues. Other attractions like CoP, Space Mtn, Splash Mtn, CBJ, HoP, Snow White etc ... all have significant issues. I believe that speaks to the mindset that began in the mid-90s of simply not maintaining things because no matter what anyone says, the MK used to be near pristine most of the time from 1971 into the 1990s.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <the MK used to be near pristine most of the time from 1971 into the 1990s< Yes it did, and for a part of that time it was the only park -- so that is where everyone went. I agree Spirit, it is not rose colored glasses, it was reality.
Originally Posted By jmuboy HM will be sparkling again. But have faith thtat the MK magmt team will let it fall into disrepair as soon as they can!
Originally Posted By jmuboy HM will be sparkling again. But have faith thtat the MK magmt team will let it fall into disrepair as soon as they can!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<MK is the cash cow of WDW and is being used to support the other three parks that have floundered in the past and recovered recently (DAK and Epcot to a degree) and are floundering (D-MGM).>> Sure. But to me the issue is why have they floundered? Is it because four is one too many parks? I love DAK. It is an incredible park. But I can make a very good argument (so long as Joe Rohde isn't nearby) as to why it never should have been built. Of course, I can also make a very good argument that it should have opened with BK or something else that was substantial to keep guests for a day. Just like I can argue that Epcot floundered because it got stale and than lost its core theme ... or that the Disney-MGM Studios became a mess because of poor choices from WDI on down. Yeah, we can start with the BAH! The MK pulls people in because for most people it's Disney World. Management has taken advantage of that to bleed it dry. They've taken away attractions, unique shopping, dining locales, entertainment ... they've taken away so much I often wonder what's next a Jon-Benet salon in the castle to go with a $40 breakfast of scrambled eggs? As someone who visits all five MK parks regularly, you must see how homogenized, how dumbed down, how bland the Florida park is. This has been a conscious choice of management from Al Weiss and Erin Wallace on down to Phil Holmes. And so long as that park puts out numbers that say it's tops in the world, something I'll always doubt to some degree, they seem to have no desire to plus it in any way. The sad fact is the only substantial plussing over the past decade at that park are a 3D film and a firework show. <<Don't you think he would love to be able to spend all of the profit and cash flow that his park generates?>> I would never presume to be able to understand what possibly goes on in Phil's mind. I think so long as he gets a bonus for BBB, he's good. <<Of course he would but it is being used elsewhere in the World. Attraction mix is determined by the executive management team at WDW. Phil is a member of that but so are a host of others who have more sway.>> One might say Phil should have the most sway of all VPs if 'his' park is bringing in the loot. And I know park VPs can certainly help push through attractions. I may not have liked the job Brad Rex did at Epcot, but he did go to bat quite a bit for Soarin. <<He uses the available funding as he feels appropriate. You can disagree with what we does do with it (i.e. additional funding for after-hours ticketed events and local entertainment) but nailing the lack of new attractions at Phil's door is unfounded.>> I agree. I'd rather bash Phil for what is under his control. From dirty restrooms to burned out lightbulbs to filthy queues to inoperable effects on major attractions to turning the MK into a generic Disney character park. I'll bash others for not reinvesting in the park in terms of new attractions.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I guess its time for WDW's "executive management team" to be shown the door and replaced with people who know how to properly run a theme park operation.>> It's actually long past that time. Long past.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I would say that when WDW only had one park they didn't have a problem with much more exhaustive rehabs than we see today.>> The question is why. As in why was it easier to shut and maintain attractions when the Disney pie was smaller than now that its been supersized. <<And this is spread among four parks. It's all about managing the guests - and this managment team simply can't do it. They are extremely reactive.>> That's for sure. And, as last weekend's events show, it's press attention (specifically negative) that pushes Disney to do anything. <<Maybe if MK had received an additional E Ticket since Splash closing Haunted Mansion wouldn't have been such a big deal. Again, it's about managing the customer and their expectations. Not reacting to them and then trying to manipulate them.>> They should print this out and pass it amongst the entire management team in Orlando. <<Please don't take my deviation from your overall point wrong. It certainly was much easier to do those exhaustive refurbishments in the 70s and even 80s when there was an off-season. Disney has certainly been successful at filling in the gaps, so to speak, in the calendar. >> Yes. And doing so is smart business. But they also can help themselves by announcing major closures many months in advance. Unfortunately, they run by a seat of their pants management style ... heck, that's why no one even knows when Space will go down, for what length of time and to what extent the changes will be (except you can count on loading gates ... Legal has a way of getting what it wants). Frankly, if Space Mountain needs to close for six months next year, that inf should already be on Disney.com ... instead they're still likely battling over how many dollars they can cut from the project. <<I just wished they would "react" and adjust accordingly with park hours, staffing, capacity, etc.>> Mike, I have an idea. Instead of wishing, why don't you dream it instead? After all, this is the Year of a Million Dreams at Disney Parks --Where Dreams Come True. Maybe you'll get your dream granted. ... More than likely you'll just a get a Dream FastPass for the Studios!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Okay, I minunderstood you then Spirit. I thought you wanted a radically changed Space Mountain.>> No. Although I'm not definitely against one either. I want a quality experience using state of the art technology and effects. As to the makeup of the attraction, so long as it satisfies the above, I don't really care all that much. But DL proves they can make a retro-future ride quite successfully if they decide on it. >><<They just don't make them like this anymore.>> Uhm ... yeah. The same could be said for any WDW attraction of late with the exception of Everest (and possibly Nemo at the Seas).<< <<Well, I don't know. As great as Everest is, as great as Splash is, the first 12 years of WDW rides, for me, offered a little bit more sophistication. It's hard to describe through typing, but I do believe the entire Space Mountain team along with John Hench really did something 'larger' with it's design. Not counting the Future World attractions which of course opened afterwords - MK's Space Mountain always kind of represented to me the ending of WED design by the "film" guys (who had past duties in different areas of the studio) and the begining of WED design by the "theme park" guys. Not historically accurate, but close enough.>> I know exactly what you mean, though. And I agree. >>Yeah. Darkness what a concept. I wonder what percentage of SM riders actually remember when you rode thru an almost pitch-dark mountain? Likely not many because it hasn't been that way in over 15 years now.<< <<I certainly do, and that's one of the many reasons it is easy to communicate with you. On my last visit I was completely void of emotion after seeing how bright it was. I was reaching for my sunglasses. I don't know if it is simply sloppy operations, a poor choice in lighting additions/upgrades by the Florida & Glendale technocrats, or even Disney legal, but the brightness was beyond acceptable.>> I gotta believe it was legal's handiwork. They have made every dark area on property bright enough to get a suntan in. <<WDW's Space Mountain, Tower of Terror, Spaceship Earth, Everest, are all rides that need to keep their individuallity. They've lost too many attractions already that were one-of-a-kind.>> So true. So true. >>Just one last thought ... after the great job WDI did of refreshing Small World have you seen how Phil Holmes and crew have maintained the attraction?<< <<Yes. From my trips since it reopened I have experienced it twice. One when it first opened and then again on my most recent trip. It was very telling to me riding it a second time at how quickly some things have already become inoperable or dirty.>> That's why WDW management needs to change. Who spends that kind of money and then IMMEDIATELY allows it to fall back into disrepair? It's sadly the WDW way.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Which is a whole other can of worms. The Monorail situation is FAR more DIRE. It was known when the Mark VIs were coming online with the Mark IVs that they weren't built to last as long as the IVs. Well, the clock has been ticking and you are going to see a FAR worse situation than what DL is currently going though. And considering at WDW they need the rails to prop up the room rates at the 3 lagoon resorts, well, they better get to work. It's one thing to dream and gossip about expansion, it's a whole other matter to just keep the current fleet in a satisfactory condition.>> If I worked in PR for WDW, I'd be much more concerned that some mainstream media might just wind up reporting on WDW's rails and all the neglect and issues instead of planting puff pieces that aim to prop up a parks VP who likely won't keep his job much longer. But what do I know?
