Originally Posted By leemac <<Oh, and btw, weren't you the guy that said on this very site within the last 12 months that Disney had no interest in Shanghai and you were glad as it was ill-suited for a resort and you certainly didn't want to have to travel there on Disney business? >> I've never said that as far as I recall. I said something along those lines about Dubai. It is no secret that the Company is looking extensively at China - the corporate office in Shanghai is sprawling. If I said anything it was that no announcement is imminent and that remains the case.
Originally Posted By leemac <<So ... are you saying here on the record that Disney will be building in Shanghai? That Jim Hill and Honor Hunter have it right?>> The Company has been explicit in their commitment to China. It is no big secret. I have no idea what either of those individuals are saying - I don't read their websites - but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Disney want to be there - but only if it is right.
Originally Posted By leemac Spirit - you can rewrite the history of HKDL as much as you like. You are plain wrong.
Originally Posted By leemac <<And just one final point about Shanghai, and that is it really doesn't matter what happens on the political front down there because ultimately whether this happens and how it happens will go through Beijing. And after spending most of the summer there, I met many people and made many friends (some through family members, who already do business in China) who are very interested in my take on major American media and especially the Walt Disney Co.>> Spirit - I've been working in China for over a decade - first in Hong Kong and then on the mainland. It is one thing to spend six weeks working in Shanghai and another to try and conduct business there over the course of a decade. I'm glad that you met the movers and shakers of the Chinese government - I can rarely get the meetings I need to get my job done - and I have a great relationship with them. I didn't realize you were so important.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Hate is a very strong word. I absolutely do not hate Jay Rasulo. I do have little respect for the job he has done as head of parks and resorts, and most people who work for the company would likely tell you the same. But as to him not having time to make changes, I'll just disagree. Things could have been done differently. Attractions that were cut could have been put back in.>> Then does obsessed and overly preoccupied better describe it? Being as you can't mention the MK without blaming Phil Holmes and Meg Crofton for everything it is the same as when you talk about WDP&R in general. And most people won't agree with you - most people may disagree with his style but most will tell you he is a talented executive and he totally gets the product. Totally. And you obviously have no idea of how a theme park is planned and built with a minority partner - if you think that a new Prez can come on board and change course immediately you are mistaken. The HK SAR government is a difficult partner to work with. Toy Story Midway Mania is the quickest attraction to open (from approval) in WDI's recent history - and it still took 2 and a half years.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Finally, I am sure the Disney fan community would be highly amused at how many times Shanghai has pulled permits and taken land for 'a Disney-like park development' to imply an impending deal and put more pressure on the Mouse.>> Then again you don't understand how these things work - all of the land in Pudong is owned by private corporations or land speculators. The government have no intention of compulsory purchasing any land - Disney will have to buy it in the open market. That is exactly why NBC-U opted to develop with a partner - there are no land or infrastructure freebies here.
Originally Posted By leemac <<First, every HKDL restroom has prominently one squat stall.>> You haven't been to TDR yet, right?
Originally Posted By leemac <<I wish these type of offerings made it to the US parks. I think most people would love a summer parade like this in Orlando (and Anaheim for that matter).>> Then you haven't seen guest reaction to Pixar Play Parade at DCA. In the height of summer Guest Relations still get complaints about the small water squirts. Those parades just wouldn't work in DLR. WDW might be more receptive.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Speaking of parades, any new parade ever headed to the MK (and no, I don't mean DL's 50th B-Day Parade of Dreams) or are they just going to trot out the same stale offerings right into WDW's 40th?>> No new parades are forthcoming for WDW.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox "I've never said that as far as I recall. I said something along those lines about Dubai. It is no secret that the Company is looking extensively at China - the corporate office in Shanghai is sprawling. If I said anything it was that no announcement is imminent and that remains the case." Your Google skills need work: <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MSGBOARD-T-88651-P-1.ASP" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/MS...-P-1.ASP</a> Post #7 written by leemac on July 21 of last year in the "Redstone VS. Iger?" thread: "Viacom is welcome to China. If it is prepared to go to a country with little IP protection, rife racketeering and massive censorship then caveat emptor. Personally I think the studios should hold back a little to force the government (and the WTO) into dealing with these issues. POTC:AWE was heavily edited in its recent run in China and that was not well received in Burbank. On the WDP&R side they NEVER contemplated flooding the Asian market with parks. There were several interested cities but there was never a possibility of all three coming together and I've got tremendous respect for the team there that have walked away from Shanghai, Singapore and Seoul. Also if you know anything about the expansion plans you know that only one was a Disneyland park and that was radically different from the DL/MK/DLP model." Spirit nailed it. You were clearly making the claim that Disney "walked away" from building any more parks in China, including Shanghai. Something changed between last summer and this summer. Was it Disney's attitude regarding additional parks in China? Or was it your willingness to corroborate what Spirit already knew?
Originally Posted By leemac Cheers for the reminder Skinnerbox - I don't recall posting that at all but then I have selective memory. Disney have walked away from numerous discussions in Asia relating to future projects and they have walked away from several Shanghai offers. The issue is that Corporate (read as: Bob Iger) wants a bigger Disney presence across the entire country and he is not prepared to do it unless every business unit has access to that market. That means Disney Channel, features in multiplexs and theme park destinations with improved IP rights. I think that is what everyone wants - and most of the big players in Hollywood are prepared to sit it out and wait for that time. Spirit - I should also apologize for the severity of my comments. It was borne out of frustration rather than anything else. I didn't mean for my comments to be as personal as they appear. I'm certainly interested in your thoughts as I'm sure most LP-ers are - my main beef is that everyone (including you) seem to think that all of this is so easy and that you have the answers for everything. I can assure you that Disney is trying everything in its power to reach an agreement on a park on the mainland - but it needs to be on terms that are acceptable to Disney.
Originally Posted By Malin *** Well, first some general observations. One (and you know I love this) is that there aren't ANY character meals. *** This isn't actually correct, the Hong Kong Disneyland Hotel restaurant Enchanted Garden does offer Character dining. I also believe Character Breakfast is offered inside the park before opening. *** Things like postcards, park books, maps and art, CDs and DVDs ... well they're practically non-existent. I found two sets of three postcards each at a hotel shop, but none in the park. The only CD I saw for sale was .. you should know this ... High School Musical. There is no park soundtrack, which is a bit odd considering all the original (or repurposed music) there (two parades, fireworks, Golden Mickeys, seasonal parades etc ...) *** I actually found very little in the Hong Kong Disneyland shops that I was interested in bringing back home. Most of the merchadise consisted of sweets and biscuits, a nice programme book, CD and DVD are very much needed. Even TDR who has a very similar line of merchadise to HKDL, has the DVD's and CD's to purchase. In the end I ended up bringing back a nice Mickey Olympic Gold medal, and that was about it. I was also interested in picking up a Olympic Mickey plush but was unable to find any and had to pick one up at the Airport on the flight home.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Wow Lee! Way to hijack a simple trip report thread And here I really liked HKDL. I shudder to think of the sheer volume of your postage if I had ripped the place like many have! So ... where to begin? How about with Shanghai since that's clearly where the Mouse is focused right now (as are you apparently). <<If I said anything it was that no announcement is imminent and that remains the case.>> Well, imminent can mean all sorts of things. Since Disney does have a park and resorts planned and in design, one would want to believe an announcement is 'imminent' ... now it doesn't mean this month, as Jim Hill has said. So, it's more likely to be closer to Honor's zillion qualifier-laced statement of possibly next year. If one of Bob Iger's confidants asked 'are we building in Shanghai', I believe the answer would be, "Not yet." With a quick follow of, "We're hoping and planning to.' Would you disagree with that? <<The Company has been explicit in their commitment to China. It is no big secret. I have no idea what either of those individuals are saying - I don't read their websites - but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Disney want to be there - but only if it is right.>> I would agree with that. But I'd also add again, Disney will only be there if the government feels it is right for them. I think we can agree that the HK SAR officials aren't thrilled with what they got in their 'deal' with the Mouse or how the 'resort' has performed. <<Spirit - I've been working in China for over a decade - first in Hong Kong and then on the mainland. It is one thing to spend six weeks working in Shanghai and another to try and conduct business there over the course of a decade.>> Lee, my family's business ties to China go back a lot longer than a decade, and at a very high level -- which is hardly news to Burbank. I'll say once more, there's a reason why Nick is the No. 1 kids' programming network in the mainland and the Disney Channel is nowhere to be found (of course, I do feel we are sparing all those wonderful children from the thought of having to watch Miley try to act ... or sing for that matter!) <<I'm glad that you met the movers and shakers of the Chinese government - I can rarely get the meetings I need to get my job done - and I have a great relationship with them. I didn't realize you were so important.>> I know you've already apologized so I'll let the cheap shot go. But yeah, I am kind of important. And the people I know in the Chinese government have sought me out, not vice versa. A very important distinction ... as Disney continues to struggle with the strong cultural element of doing business in China. <<Then does obsessed and overly preoccupied better describe it? Being as you can't mention the MK without blaming Phil Holmes and Meg Crofton for everything it is the same as when you talk about WDP&R in general.>> Out of everything you have said, the only thing I take deep exception to is this point. Because it tries to further a nasty innuendo started months (or years?) ago by another LP poster that I am some kind of Disney middle manager stalker. I have far better things to do with my time, like my recent summer in China, than obsess over mid level Disney park execs. If I ever obsess over someone, they would be of far greater import. And if I have issues with the way the MK (or all of WDW) is run, why is it somehow wrong to point such issues out to the people in charge? If frequent flyers of United Airlines have issues with the way the airline is run as an example, they blog about Glenn Tilton on airline forums. I have significant issues with what the MK has been transformed into under Phil's watch (and Meg's 'overseeing' however ceremonial it might be). And there is no better place to mention it then on a Disney fan site. I mean, I suppose if I see Bob at the Emmys or a post-Emmy bash, I could always say 'Phil Holmes is doing a rather lousy job of running your supposed flagship park' ... but I am afraid he might say 'Phil Who?' Or more to the point, I doubt he'd want to have such a discussion about theme parks at such an event. So, I'll put it out here when I have a criticism well-knowing posts here are reviewed in Burbank, and hopefully someone will pay heed to it. If not, I vented and feel a bit better. (Btw, while I'm venting, nice to see food prices at WDW were raised again ... so the same filet I paid $25 for at the California Grill a decade ago is now $41 ... inflation, I guess.) Disney, sadly, recycles execs the way baseball recycles managers. It's like an old boys club. Once you've got the gig, unless you're found with Boy Scouts or in a crack den or passed out on Main Street, you'll never lose membership. That means Phil may replace Erin one day ... or he'll move to the Studios ... or maybe out to DL or DLP or onto the DCL. That's just the routine and it is a very, very tired one. <<And most people won't agree with you - most people may disagree with his style but most will tell you he is a talented executive and he totally gets the product. Totally.>> We'll just have to (god, I hate this phrase) 'agree to disagree.' I have talked to enough Disney people (likely some of your pals in Glendale!) and I have never gotten a true positive response. Tepid at best. And I won't deny 'talented executive' if you're using the classic Wall Street 'the only thing that matters is this quarter's results and plans to increase shareholder value in the next' way. If you mean talented as in creative with a grasp of what makes his product special (and not the ability to take advantage of heartstrings to sell low quality products in parks, films and consumer products), I'll just disagree. <<And you obviously have no idea of how a theme park is planned and built with a minority partner - if you think that a new Prez can come on board and change course immediately you are mistaken. The HK SAR government is a difficult partner to work with. Toy Story Midway Mania is the quickest attraction to open (from approval) in WDI's recent history - and it still took 2 and a half years.>> I don't think a Prez can come aboard and change direction immediately. I do, however, know that Jay had four years (to the scheduled before it was moved way up) opening to somehow beef-up the roster of attractions. Can you honestly tell me that he ever even suggested it? Let alone tried to do something about it other than listing a guest relations office (City Hall) and fountains (Liki Tikis) as 'attractions.' As to Midway Mania taking 2 1/2 years, all I can say is we both know there is way too much red tape bureaucracy in Glendale and Burbank on things like this. When mega-resorts on the Cotai Strip (or even the Vegas Strip for that matter) can go up in less time than a simple D-Ticket at a Disney park, something is fundamentally wrong with the process. That's why I keep wondering when all of these DCA additions are actually going to get started and when/if they'll ever announce Mermaid and the other Fantasyland additions for MK. At this rate, they certainly won't have them open for the 40th. But back to your point about the HK SAR being tough to work with. I'd point out that fundamentally there is an issue in the fact that the HK SAR 'owns' the park. Disney is used to doing whatever it wants, when it wants on its schedule and timetable. Even in Tokyo, they're dealing with a very willing partner in another company -- the OLC -- and not a government body. They should have understood what getting into bed in China entailed. The fact there were no mints left on the pillow and the down comforter wasn't turned down years ago should have given them some idea what they were getting into. The fact is, as you should know well from your personal dealings, the park is viewed not so much as a partnership with TWDC, but as a state-controlled entity.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Then you haven't seen guest reaction to Pixar Play Parade at DCA. In the height of summer Guest Relations still get complaints about the small water squirts. Those parades just wouldn't work in DLR. WDW might be more receptive.>> No. I missed the PPP on my last DCA visit and haven't seen it yet. Although I want to. I don't for a second doubt your assertion that Guest Relations is deluged (pun intended) with complaints when a drop of water lands on the Gucci handbag of some lady from Laguna Niguel, who then wants a free AP or a week at the Grand. However, if Disney posted enough signs and put a warning in the brochure, that should be good enough. You get wet. Tough. Disney is so afraid of getting questioned over the little stuff they consistently miss the big picture. Anyway, I don't want to derail my own thread (I'll leave that to you), but the parade in HK is terrific. I would love to see it in either Anaheim, Orlando or both. But I won't hold my breath. <<Speaking of parades, any new parade ever headed to the MK (and no, I don't mean DL's 50th B-Day Parade of Dreams) or are they just going to trot out the same stale offerings right into WDW's 40th?>> <<No new parades are forthcoming for WDW. >> That's just so sad and so predictable. I guess the surveys all show that guests just love the magical 1991 and 2001 parades that will be playing in 2015 at this rate.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Out of everything you have said, the only thing I take deep exception to is this point. Because it tries to further a nasty innuendo started months (or years?) ago by another LP poster that I am some kind of Disney middle manager stalker. >> I'd dispute that too. Personally I think you are consumer-savvy - you understand buzzwords and how they work. So when you create names for Meg or believe that there is WalMart'ing then it works to convey your message. And it is effective. Very effective. However I do think that you are quick to blame the VPs at the parks for every "misstep" in your eyes. You know I'll disagree with you about MK - to me it is the cash cow of WDW and I'm happy to see it milked if the rest of the parks see development. I have never had any fondness for MK so I'm happy to let it slide. That said - there are some very ambitious plans for MK if WDW has the stomach to add the capacity (and that is the genius point - MK now needs new attractions from a capacity POV). The Golden Goose will only continue to lay the valuable eggs if she is well-tended to.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I have talked to enough Disney people (likely some of your pals in Glendale!) and I have never gotten a true positive response.>> Now I am worried. In light of what has happened this summer to my group I'm trying to keep my pals a lot closer.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 From Leemac in mid-2007<<On the WDP&R side they NEVER contemplated flooding the Asian market with parks. There were several interested cities but there was never a possibility of all three coming together and I've got tremendous respect for the team there that have walked away from Shanghai, Singapore and Seoul. Also if you know anything about the expansion plans you know that only one was a Disneyland park and that was radically different from the DL/MK/DLP model.">> <<Spirit nailed it. You were clearly making the claim that Disney "walked away" from building any more parks in China, including Shanghai.>> Thanks, Skinner. I knew Lee had posted something to the affect that Disney was done with Asian expansion and that this was a good thing. <Something changed between last summer and this summer. Was it Disney's attitude regarding additional parks in China? Or was it your willingness to corroborate what Spirit already knew?>> Good questions ... all.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I knew Lee had posted something to the affect that Disney was done with Asian expansion and that this was a good thing.>> It may be semantics but I never said "done". I said that they had walked away. I'm still convinced that Disney won't jump into the mainland market until all of the ducks are in a row. Media Networks and Studio Entertainment take priority - they are a far more valuable commodity to the Company than Parks & Resorts and I'm glad they are the ones driving this forward. With some assistance.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Cheers for the reminder Skinnerbox - I don't recall posting that at all but then I have selective memory. >> That's a very dangerous thing to have when dealing with the Chinese. <<Disney have walked away from numerous discussions in Asia relating to future projects and they have walked away from several Shanghai offers. The issue is that Corporate (read as: Bob Iger) wants a bigger Disney presence across the entire country and he is not prepared to do it unless every business unit has access to that market. That means Disney Channel, features in multiplexs and theme park destinations with improved IP rights. I think that is what everyone wants - and most of the big players in Hollywood are prepared to sit it out and wait for that time.>> To me, that still shows a fundamentally flawed approach toward negotiating with the Chinese government. Disney is still going in and acting like the big, bad Mouse and expecting the government to roll over while singing Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah in Mandarin ... The fact remains Disney needs China far more than China needs Disney. And that means the false bravado doesn't, hasn't played well over there. If it had, a resort would have been announced years ago already. While all the above points are salient, they don't mean much so long as Disney's 'tude is one of 'you need us badly.' China is developing quite nicely (pollution aside) and cultivating a real middle class (while US politicians and companies are actively killing ours) and they don't need a Disneyland on the mainland, the Disney Channel on TV, and Mickey boutiques all over to be recognized as a world power. Do I think Disney should be there? Yes. But it can't be in anything remotely close to that which allowed HKDL to open as almost a Disneyland facade with nice landscaping and shops. <<Spirit - I should also apologize for the severity of my comments. It was borne out of frustration rather than anything else. I didn't mean for my comments to be as personal as they appear. I'm certainly interested in your thoughts as I'm sure most LP-ers are - my main beef is that everyone (including you) seem to think that all of this is so easy and that you have the answers for everything. I can assure you that Disney is trying everything in its power to reach an agreement on a park on the mainland - but it needs to be on terms that are acceptable to Disney. >> Lee, don't sweat it. A certain Baloo has vouched for your character and that is more than enough for me. I do understand the position you're in. Please understand that while I don't collect checks from the Mouse, I am in a similar position (due to both work and family ties). I don't believe anything in China is 'so easy.' I learned that in my first hour in Beijing and it never changed. But I do think ... no, I know that things could be easier for Disney if it had some different 'faces' working China and if it had a different mindset about how it goes about its business. You state that you have over 10 years experience in China and that Disney walked away from the table multiple times, again implying Burbank is firmly in control over what develops in China -- or doesn't. I'm sure you're intimately knowledgeable with 'Guanxi' ... one never walks away from one's host's table. It just isn't smart business. Now, can we get back to talking about HKDL? How's the Mansion approval coming along?
Originally Posted By leemac <<As to Midway Mania taking 2 1/2 years, all I can say is we both know there is way too much red tape bureaucracy in Glendale and Burbank on things like this.>> I genuinely thought that progress was being made. I'm now even more convinced that it is one step forward and two steps backwards. It has been a bad summer and I honestly don't know where it is going to shake out. For the past eighteen months I thought WDI was moving in the right direction. That has changed drastically over the past six weeks.
