Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Here's my take on your experience Spirit. It's not DVC, it's the fact you were at AKL in the cheap season, when there are even deeper discounts now due to construction. And isn't it free Dining too? We see this at DLP all the time, when it used to be the kids go free offers, the guest behaviour was worse.>> I'd add that with construction going on, I can imagine some guests feeling like they don't need to take as much care, since the place is undergoing changes.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I'm afraid the Spirit's analysis of DVC owner demographics is far more fiction than fact. <<Timeshare vacationers have a median income that is eighty percent higher than all U.S. households. They stay longer in the destination, nine nights on average, compared to the average resort hotel stay of five nights. Most timeshare owners travel with family and/or friends, and average of four people per party. Timeshare owners and their guests spend an estimated $4.4 billion annually in the U.S. resort areas on their timeshare vacations. From the Master’s Thesis of an MIT student fulfilling the requirements for a Masters of Science in Real Estate Development.>> Source: <a href="http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/32225/1/51886529.pdf" target="_blank">http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstrea m/1721.1/32225/1/51886529.pdf</a> Now of course as usual the Spirit will talk about how I’m obsessed with proving him wrong by searching for information to support my position. I have no such obsession. I just like to bring a little factual information to the discussion.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <But that still doesn't negate my feelings about what I saw/experienced ... there was a clear lowering of the quality of the entire DAK Lodge experience and I don't have any other explanation for it. I'm open to other theories ...< could it also be that possibly Disney is moving others to DAK rooms as many people who had booked there are being encoruaged to cancel - due to the construction. When I was there in August ( to dine at Boma) and those black plastic mats were hanging on the upper floors - I can tell you I would not want to be there. There are precious few DVC rooms open at this point -- it you picked out DVC people- you were doing so out of a true minority of people staying there. In fact are any of the rooms open yet -- when I attended the Doorway to Dreams opening in Woodfield Mall here ( the sales office with full size mock ups of the AKL DVC rooms) - if you bought Oct 1 was the first date they were letting you book for ? So how is it these people were DVC people ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I don't think I'm a DVC basher and I wish you wouldn't let emotion take over and just think about what I said, then the hyperbole needs to turn down on the other side -- do you not see WalMart shopping, tombstone pizza eating...etc etc as just as far over the top ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 If you re read you r post Spirit -- i think you will see it was way over the top.
Originally Posted By MinnieSummer These comments have made seriously rethink my stay at AKL for Christmas. We chose there because the last two resrots we've stayed at for Christmas have seriously let us down, yet we always went to AKL for dinner and felt wowed by the atmosphere. I knew booking that there would be construction but was told that the majority of it being done in the existing struction would be finished by then -- I hope that is accurate. I feel the issue of the restaurants going donw hill is more the fault of FREE DINING than DVC. Let's face it, if you're dining for free you're going to eat in restaurants you would never be able to afford normally. If you can't eat there normally you may not know how to act (although eating with your hands isn't acceptable in any table service restaurant that I know of) and thus appear to be PWT (how I hate that term). I would much rather stay at a DVC than at an All Star resort during free dining.
Originally Posted By smeeeko ^First off, I'd like to think we can afford to stay at AKL.. I was looking forward to going again on a trip we aren't doing Food & Wine fest (it doesn't make sense to me to stay at a nice hotel with fine dining options if you're going to be in the park all day or attending several of the high priced ticketed wine events going on). Staying at Pop makes sense this trip, and as long as there aren't Pop Warner kids running the place (and yeah, I do make a big brush-stroke with these kids & their unruly parents as I've experienced it several times first hand during December trips). Not all Pop Warner kids & parents are obnoxious and drunken oafs that hang about the walkways at night yelling and smoking and basically letting the kids run amok. Also not all DVC members themselves are obnoxious "NIMBY" type people (which is the sort of negativity from them I've experienced "how dare the 'regular' guests use our pool!! that sort of thing). No, my problem with DVC is that while DVC members may be nice, Disney doesn't handle DVC very well. They push DVC SO MUCH to everyone.. and take away stuff like concierge and better rooms from folks like us who are fortunate to visit once a year.. or less even in some cases. I don't know what Wilderness Lodge did with DVC before the Villas were open but if Wilderness Lodge got the same treatment that AKL is getting from the construction of these DVC rooms, I feel badly for those folks. I like staying on property and it's nice to be able to stay in WL or AKL when things have quieted down on our trips and I'm willing to stay somewhere tucked away because you are treated well (we've been told "WELCOME HOME!" at AKL since we stayed there in winter 2001.. I think it's Disney's way of making you feel they are glad to see you from the get-go. I always felt comfortable at AKL and I loved staying there. We've stayed at AKL 3x (including several days concierge) I think rather than spending the money to take away rooms from guests who have stayed at any particular resort they should hold off o building anything but the actual DVC villa. The fact they have DVC rooms means we (the paying guests) will be losing room options, and precious peaceful viewing options). Hey if AKL wants to give us a free upgrade from Pop Century they have my permission! =) Why doesn't stuff like that ever happen to me?? LOL oh and the feet on the table thing would tick me off too.. especially at AKL where everything was supposedly handcarved and imported from Africa. That there's ART yer stickin' your feet on! sheesh. ;P
Originally Posted By smeeeko ^also why would sticking your feet on the furniture be ok ANYWHERE in ANY hotel? I'm sure these people don't let their kids do that at home!! sigh..
Originally Posted By RoadTrip AKL is the ONLY time where 'regular' hotel rooms have been converted to DVC units. As previously mentioned, Disney is doing it with the AKL because they have not been able to fill the rooms at rack rates. I know of no instance where concierge or better rooms have been taken away from regular guests and given to DVC. If that is happening at AKL, that would be the first time.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Is the "wet ride" for Epoct Center the long rumored Rafting ride for Canada? DCA is getting an overhaul of Grizzly River Rapids which will supposedly add AA's to the ride so im sure disney will go the cheap route and clone extras to add to Floridas raft ride too. >> No comment.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Here's my take on your experience Spirit. It's not DVC, it's the fact you were at AKL in the cheap season, when there are even deeper discounts now due to construction. And isn't it free Dining too? We see this at DLP all the time, when it used to be the kids go free offers, the guest behaviour was worse. I do not blame DVC at all.>> Yeah, Dave, I do agree with all of the above. I think in retrospect it was a combination of all what you wrote with some DVC thrown in too. It just was such a shockingly cheap, tacky group of guests ... the kind that you look at (or I do) and wonder 'how is it possible these people can afford to stay here when they look like 192 Quality Inn folks?' <<Are the AKL DVC units already finished and being occupied? I was under the impression that they were still in the construction phase. How many units were/are being converted from the original hotel rooms?>> Yes. There are a significant portion of studios done. But they have what I would estimate as half the hotel closed. So even if DVC is only 10-15% of what's there now (which is what I believe to be true) it's more significant when the possible inventory is cut so drastically. <<Spirit... you might want to re-read what you said about DVC in your initial post. It was a series of repeated slams against DVC and DVC owners. All of which, as pointed out above, is very unfair in that virtually none of the AK DVC units are available at this time. >> Trippy, I'll admit I did something I don't like to do ... and put individual behavior on a group, which is never a good thing. But you're not right about DVC at DAK Lodge. The first units opened in early July and more have been coming steadily online. How many? I have no idea. But when half (or more) of the resort is under construction/conversion, it is very noticeable. <<Anything you say about DVC lowering the quality of the clientele at a resort is nothing other than unfounded, biased conjecture. There are legitimate complaints a person could have about DVC. Attracting PWT is not one of them.>> I'll just say I have noticed a significant difference in clientele at certain WDW deluxe resorts when DVC gets added. People feel that it's their home and can (and do) act like that. I'm sorry but being sprawled across a sofa in the lobby of the Lodge with shoes leaning on an end table is beyond tacky. I'll never forget when I first stayed at a Boardwalk Vills in 1999 and some 'owner' had tagged all the furniture with their initials in pen. No, of course, this isn't typical behavior of the majority of DVCers ... but it just is things I've observed that maybe causes me to jump to certain conclusions (that may not be entirely correct!) I dunno whether these folks were DVCers or not, what they were paying to stay, whether they free dining etc ... I just know I've never had such a 'trashy vibe' going at DAK Lodge. And it bothered me. I don't like trash. If it was worth something it wouldn't be trash now would it?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I'll never forget when I first stayed at a Boardwalk Vills in 1999 and some 'owner' had tagged all the furniture with their initials in pen. >> I seriously doubt it was an 'owner'. We have to pay to have all that crap cleaned through our monthly maintenance charges. Anyone who would do something to INCREASE those maintenance charges when they were paying for them would have to be a freaking idiot. At any point in time a substantial portion of DVC rooms are being rented by non-owners. To attribute all of these behaviors to DVC'ers is foolish and more than likely incorrect.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<AKL is the ONLY time where 'regular' hotel rooms have been converted to DVC units. As previously mentioned, Disney is doing it with the AKL because they have not been able to fill the rooms at rack rates.>> Disney has had trouble filling most of its rooms at rack rate since 2001. The discounts are available at most resorts almost year round now. But I blame Disney Marketing for not doing a better job on DAK Lodge. That resort is an amazing place, one of a kind in the USA. There's no reason why that place shouldn't be at 85%-plus occupancy all year. Also, while not exactly a conversion, let's not forget that Disney has indeed changed properties to DVC ... Disney Institute became Saratoga Springs ... now Contemporary North is about to become Disney's Contemporary Resort and Villas. <<I know of no instance where concierge or better rooms have been taken away from regular guests and given to DVC. If that is happening at AKL, that would be the first time.>> I have no idea how all the rooms on the 5th and 6th floor (concierge) will become DVC Villas (if I'm not mistaken) and yet concierge service will remain to non-owners ... just don't see it happening.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I seriously doubt it was an 'owner'. We have to pay to have all that crap cleaned through our monthly maintenance charges. Anyone who would do something to INCREASE those maintenance charges when they were paying for them would have to be a freaking idiot. At any point in time a substantial portion of DVC rooms are being rented by non-owners. To attribute all of these behaviors to DVC'ers is foolish and more than likely incorrect.>> Trippy, it could have been done by anyone ... maybe one of Eisner's brats went through in a drunken stupor of tagging villas ;-) My point is it put DVC in a very bad light to me from the start ... I couldn't believe that such a high-priced supposedly 'high quality' product would give me a one-bedroom villa with tagged furniture. I'm not even talking 1-2-3 spots (not that that would have been OK) but more like a dozen ... I didn't complain because I had booked a studio at an AP rate and go upgraded, so I was likely saving 65% off rack! Anyway, I feel like this thread is getting off-track on yet another rehash of the same old ... I am tired of seeing WDW become the Timeshare Kingdom of the World. I'm sorry if that bothers some of you guys (especially the folks I like here ... oh, and you too Trippy!) ;-) I just wish you DVCers wouldn't be so apathetic when Disney reduces quality ... you are 'owners' dammit!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Spirit, The whole PWT argument is truly beneath you. You have presented some reasonable arguments in the past about why you think DVC has reduced the level of experience available at WDW's deluxe resorts. I don't know that I agree with all of those arguments, but at least they are reasonable. You have argued that DVC additions to existing resorts put extra stress on dining and recreational facilities that were not designed to handle the additional people. That is reasonable, though I don't know if it is true. Whenever DVC is added to an existing resort they always add pool and exercise facilities that should more than take care of the relatively small number of DVC units. As for dining facilities, that should be no problem whatsoever. All the DVC'ers are heating up Tombstone Pizza's in their villa ovens. They make no demand whatsoever on the resort restaurants. ;-) You have also made the argument that DVC resulted in WDW bringing more rooms online than they were really prepared to handle. Again a reasonable argument and one that I can neither prove nor refute. But I admit it is a possibility. So when you have arguments that ARE reasonable and ARE plausible; why do you resort to this PWT crap? It truly is beneath you.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<My point is it put DVC in a very bad light to me from the start ... I couldn't believe that such a high-priced supposedly 'high quality' product would give me a one-bedroom villa with tagged furniture. I'm not even talking 1-2-3 spots (not that that would have been OK) but more like a dozen ... I didn't complain because I had booked a studio at an AP rate and go upgraded, so I was likely saving 65% off rack!>> Ahh... NOW I understand. It is kind of like Labuda and how all the rooms at Port Orleans Riverside are absolutely filthy because she stayed in one room at one time where the carpet was dirty. So why didn't you say so in the first place?? If you had just mentioned the "Labuda Effect" I would have instantly known where you were coming from. I would have thought you were way off base, but at least I would have understood it!
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I'm not going to say if the Spirit observation about DVC owners is correct or not but I would like to comment on why Spirit tends to come off less than credible sometimes. This was one of the most positive posts that I have seen from Spirit in awhile. He was balanced and almost giddy about his trip through the World. Then out of the clear blue came the really irrational, bigoted opinion of what constitutes PWT and the negative effect he feels it has had on the resorts. I was reading along and thinking, wow, there must have been some real progress in the upkeep of the parks, when out of left/right field comes the put downs and labeling of other guests. Kind of made me wonder just exactly how clear visioned Mr. Spirit indeed is. Guess I'll just have to judge for myself.
Originally Posted By danyoung >But I blame Disney Marketing for not doing a better job on DAK Lodge. That resort is an amazing place, one of a kind in the USA. There's no reason why that place shouldn't be at 85%-plus occupancy all year.< Just from reading online, it seems that most peoples' objections surround the fact that it's a somewhat distant resort. I wonder if people think that they're going to be staying in Ft. Lauderdale and bussing to the parks, as opposed to staying at an incredible resort that's at most 5 minutes further away than other resorts.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Spirit, I completely agree with your take on the new Oh Canada! movie. I've grown so tired of the smug, wink-wink self-aware movies -- I'm ready for them to just play it straight. How about a nice travellogue where you might allow the audience to think and learn and be moved. Heck, this 'Oh Canada!' makes 'Golden Dreams' seem like 'The English Patient.'
