Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy That's a beautiful one too...though not quite as moving IMO, I guess because I love to sing and I love how broad the range on The National Anthem is (plus it's a big longer). I do love almost any patriotic song though, always had a soft spot for 'em...they sure were written by people (I was going to say "men", which may be correct, but I'm not 100% sure) who were really instilled with patriotism back then.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy Point of interest: Francis Scott Key's great-great-great grandson was interviewed in a newscast about this, and he finds this adamantly despicable. Which I guess isn't surprising with the family ties and all...it's funny though, sometimes you don't think of historical figures as being people in the sense that they wed and had families and such. When they introduced him I was like, "Whoa, Francis Scott Key had kids and grandkids...huh". Lol
Originally Posted By DLfreek86 >>Thank you RoadTrip, my stomach has been turning and turning on what and how to post.<< Ditto, this thread is making me absolutely nauseas. Reminding me of how far we really have to go.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I'm waiting for people to sing the "new" spanish lerics National Anthem at a baseball game. Thats really going to go over well. Perhaps we should have two national anthems, one in English and one in Spanish. OR perhaps the national anthem should be in all of the 5000 differenct living languages spoken in the world.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Why should their be a national anthem in Spanish over any of the other 5000 differenct living languages of the world? There are far more people of German decent living int he US than "latin" decent. I quess George Orwell had it right. Some pigs are more equal than others.
Originally Posted By Lake Nona Folks, we as a nation is slipping towards a third world nation. These folks who cross our border without going thru a port of entry has more rights than a good will citizen of the USA. As Tom says in a few post back...Ferme The Border.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "There a racism component to all of this and anyone who denies it is blind." Let's just say here that I respectfully, but vehemently, disagree. I've mentioned it here before, but in my work I deal with quite a few undocumented people who are on welfare. They come here, have babies, the father disappears, they apply for aid, get approved, and we're left with the responsibility of trying to find the father to get a judgment of paternity so he can start supporting his children instead of taxpayers. We have something like 800,000 child support cases here in L.A. county. Roughly, 60-70 percent have a current or past welfare component. We never get full welfare reimbursement in any case, i.e. dollar out and we get the full dollar back, which is the theory. Instead, we're lucky to get 30%. Point here is, I long ago quite seeing brown/black/yellow whatever in front of me. More and more, Judges are losing their tempers with welfare recipients who obviously have no intention of ever getting off, because the welfare money is a sure thing. We're finding more and more cases where fraud is being committed. The family units aren't fractured, they've learned to tell us they are, so they send most of the welfare back home to Sonora or Sinoloa or Guatemala or wherever they're from and then live on the wages they make under the table, i.e. non-taxed. The Social Services fraud unit that evaluates criminal referrals to the D.A. is well over a year behind in their case load. One reason for that is their department, for whatever reason, is ALWAYS the first to get their budget cut. As far as simple criminal referrals for non-payment of child support, we've been running that unit with just two (2!) attorneys for the last two years due to budget cuts, which means yes, your chances of getting convicted of that crime here are slim and none. There is no law here in California that says, ironically enough, that you must prosecute that crime. We're now boldly talking about adding a third (woo, slow us down!) attorney to that unit. They could add ten and still be behind on all the cases that should be handled. I think you get the idea. I'm just talking about one small section where undocumented (and let's quit being nice here, they're illegal aliens) people are sapping the strength of our system. There's health care, transportation, schools, etc., where they're using those systems with impunity as well and not paying one blessed taxed cent to support it. So please, don't DARE tell me this is a racist issue at all. I've got nothing against any race. I do have something against thieves, and that's what this is, theft of services on an unprecedented scale. On May 1, when they walk out, I sure as hell would love it if they just kept walking south and made it back across the border. I am flat out tired of seeing tax paying citizens not able to get the full benefit of services they're entitled to because of the huge amount of illegals who come in and take from our government something that is not theirs.
Originally Posted By trailsend STPH ~ Your Post #47 ~ I've been deleting over and over what to respond; how to say it cleverly, so I'll just jump right in. It is just plain refreshing to read the simple truth you have posted. I already felt this was not a race issue. There is no reason to sugar-coat this situation as so many want to do. You are there and know the FACTS. The facts speak for themselves and you have stated them so well. I agree wholeheartedly with your post. The whole thing.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy STPH, that was a good post. Very interesting. So there. Seems to me if we want to protect our country and not wake up in the near futute to find a place none of us recognize we need to secure the borders.... NOW.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I am not saying the present situation is acceptable. I disagree with how to eliminate the problem. Not because I'm hugely philosophically opposed to tightening the borders, but because I know it is impossible to do so. The United States armed forces have not been able to patrol a relatively short border where terrorists come in to Iraq from Syria. If we cannot control a border with armed forces where we know those coming in are going to try to kill us, just how the heck do you think guys from the border patrol are going to succeed securing a border that is more than twice as long? I don't disagree that there is a problem today. I just don't think it is reasonable to think that you can totally seal our border with Mexico. This is where I think that Bush has actually come up with some ideas that make sense. He has some experience with this... he was Governor of Texas and has dealt with illegal immigration before. As for racism, the tone taken in some of these posts is a tone usually reserved for discussing child molesters. That level of anger makes me think there is a racial component to the issue. If there is not, I think you can at least see what would make me think that way.
Originally Posted By PlainoLJoe YOur right, closing the borders is quite a bit difficult. But actually doing something about the illegals that are here now is a great way to start. Those people blocking the streets with an illegal protestt, those kids not being in school when they should be, those kids and adults committing crimes and going unpunished. Thats where we need to start. To show that we are not gonna take any more crap from those that should not be here, no matter what race or part of the world they hail from. Simple actions like that would begin to deter others from coming here. Its a slow process but it has to be started at all if its going to be successful in any form.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<As for racism, the tone taken in some of these posts is a tone usually reserved for discussing child molesters. That level of anger makes me think there is a racial component to the issue. If there is not, I think you can at least see what would make me think that way.>> Weren't you the one who posted this? <<I'm sorry. This is so minor in the total scheme of things that I have a really hard time caring one way or another. They might as well change the words. The dang song is un-singable anyway. Let 'em sing as far as I'm concerned.>> And then your wondering why the "tone" of some messages seemed angry and therefor RACIST. Oh my! I for one agree with the President and do not believe the lerics, melody, title or language of our countrys National Anthem should be changed. I really resent the mere notion that anyone one of us should have to bend toward some sort of compromise on this subject as unreasonable. Furthermore, I went back and looked at this thread. Not a single post has been admined. I think its great that we can have a lively intellectual discourse without having to resort to personal attacks ( and I really mean this too ). I am actaully floored, everyone has been extremely objective on this thread in their posts. I really don't see any racism at play here.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Furthermore, I went back and looked at this thread. Not a single post has been admined. I think its great that we can have a lively intellectual discourse without having to resort to personal attacks ( and I really mean this too ). I am actaully floored, everyone has been extremely objective on this thread in their posts. I really don't see any racism at play here.>> You are correct. There really haven't been any posts like that in this thread. I was thinking of posts in the "CA Democrats support May 1st walkout" thread, a few of which I thought sounded rascist. Those posts (and my response to them) have been redlined. Without tossing the word at anyone here, I do believe that the overall situation has a racial component to it. Sorry… that’s what I believe; you are free to believe differently.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I'd characterize it as "class-ism" more than racism. I think a lot of what most people consider "racism" is more about social class than race. If these were nuclear physicists and doctors illegally crossing the borders we wouldn't be having this controversy. The backlash is directed at those that unfairly burden the social services that are in place for citizens more than just a irrational fear of mexicans. One of the lessons of 'katrina' came from confronting the reality of the underclass in new orleans and the mississippi delta. It was harder to be critical of the victims because most were black. But the issue at hand wasn't their race, it was their social class, and the uncomfortable reminder of their numbers. I think it's similar with illegal immigration. They are predominantly mexican and latin american, but the issue isn't their race - it's the fact that they're largely unskilled and uneducated. They may be a potent workforce, but only for menial labor. Some people will say that these things take time, and that their subsequent generations will assimilate better. But that assumes a policy that any illegal immigrants who manage to get across the border can stay forever. My biggest concerns about illegal immigration aren't about their race or language, it's about their need for social services when they get here. The current rough estimate is about eleven million, mostly clustered in CA and the southwest. That's a helluva lot, and as progressive as I consider myself to be, I'm all in favor of shipping some back. And I'm not too sympathetic to their 'demands' of our resources.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy You can seal the border by building a wall. It worked in Israel and it has worked at our border near San Diego. The fact that Bush isn't pushing for this first shows he doesn't get it. You seal the border first, then deal with the 12 million that have invaded our country and who are determined to make this a toilet like Mexico, the place they felt the need to escape.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Post 56 was in responce to post 54. Darn the Beaumandy. He's so quick at the draw.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I do love almost any patriotic song though, always had a soft spot for 'em...they sure were written by people (I was going to say "men", which may be correct, but I'm not 100% sure) > For the record, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" was written by a woman. As for this Spanish version of the SSB, I think it's much ado about very little. This will likely go down as a novelty record, and a month from now probably all but forgotten as we all go on to the next "pressing" thing that cable news decides is pressing. <I for one agree with the President and do not believe the lerics, melody, title or language of our countrys National Anthem should be changed. > Nor can it be changed, unless Congress decides to do so. No big worry here. It's interesting to note that the melody for the SSB was a British drinking song. Also, we Americans took the British national anthem itself (God Save the King) and turned it into "My Country Tis of Thee," originally as a slap at the British and the monarchy - arguably, cheekier moves than this bad translation to a new melody.
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Originally Posted By fkurucz >>My we're painting with a broad brush today, aren't we??<< No, I'm not. I have lived in Mexico and the description I gave is pretty typical of of the lower classes. Wife beating is socially accepted and no one is ever arrested.
