Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Can you then explain the number of tunnels that recently been found UNDER the wall? Also, if it's so secure, why is the Minutemen Militia building fences to the East of San Diego? << The wall need not be impermeable. If it can stop 90% of the flow, its a success in my book.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Nowadays, it's nothing like that. For most people, there is no legal method of immigrating whatsoever. Don't believe me? Go to the USCIS website and see if it's possible for a poor person from Mexico can immigrate if they have no family already here as citizens.<< I thought that had already agreed on this. Nevertheless, this is not a valid reason to open the borders to the world's teeming masses.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<However, we do need to make it much faster to get here to work for these people. >> Why?
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>It's not racism to be concerned about an influx of over fifty million more people within ten years.<< Correct. These are different times. 100 years ago ours was a sparsely populated nation. Today we are in the chokehold of sprawl, traffic jams and a host of environmental problems that will only become much worse if keep letting people in. The only people who benefit from mass immigration are the wealthy, because it depresses wages. They are unaffected by all its negative side effects (unlike the middle class). The only illegals to be found at the expensive private schools attended by their kids are the low paid staff.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The only people a non-citizen immigrant can apply for are spouses and children under 18.<< That will be plenty enough.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Throughout our history we have frequently changed laws we did not like. The repeal of prohibition was one.<< True, but current immigration laws are being ignored because of pressure placed on the administartion by the wealthy. This has nothing to do with the "will of the people".
Originally Posted By wahooskipper So what if it's world events. What world events needs more of...not less...is some levity.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >><<However, we do need to make it much faster to get here to work for these people. >> Why?<< The reason I ask why is this: We already are allowing approximately 1 million people per year to come LEGALLY to the US. That is a very generous number. Further more, we should be very picky about who gets in. Importing masses of uneducated people who are only fit to perform menial labor seems like a bad strategy to me.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Interesting topic. It's funny, because I just took a trip to Ellis Island on Sunday. Man, what an eye opener! I learned that with each new wave of immigrants, the laws changed. Apparently, prior to 1855 there was an "open door" policy. Basically, you show up, and you're a citizen. After that, there were new policies in place to regulate who came in. It's pretty amazing what people had to go through to get here. Yeah, it may take longer now, but it certainly seemed more stressful back then. First, in your country of origin, you had to be delaused because the steamship companies did not want to have to pay for your passage back if you were rejected. Then, you were put on a ship bound for America that would take from a week to a month. Basically, you were in steerage, and were treated like cattle. Then, once you got to Ellis Island, you were herded into the main hall for inspection. This could take most of the day, and you were inspected for disease, and then scrutinized to make sure you would not be a burden on society. I believe at the time, the cost was $5 to become a citizen as well (I'm trying to remember all of the details). The thing about this, is that ALL of the people going through Ellis Island were doing it legally. Those that did try to get here illegally were shipped back home. It goes to show how much people were willing to sacrifice to make a better life for themselves. These days, the people who do not want to put forth the effort to be here legally are complaining about being treated unfairly? I really don't have much sympathy for those that willfully want to take advantage of this country's hospitality and social services. It's unfortunate that companies have taken advantage and used this cheap labor force and exploited them, because by doing so they have also removed the option of Americans doing those jobs. All for the sake of profits and paying workers as little as possible. Something needs to be done to document and tax the illegals that are here. I don't know if deporting is a good idea, as several have pointed out, but we've got to do something. I just can't get over how bold and brazen these people are! Yeah, they might have had a hard time sneaking accross the border, but do the realize what those who went through Ellis Island went through to get here legally? Probably not...
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>It's unfortunate that companies have taken advantage and used this cheap labor force and exploited them<< I think that it goues beyond this. The employers have become major instigators of this situation. Some (like food processor ConAgra) even went so far as giving their illegal workers the day off so they could attend the rallies. Some go as far as recruiting the workers down in Mexico. We basically have a system that has lost all control.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Companies really should be penalized for that. It's pretty pathetic all for the dollar...
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I fall on the side of thinking that the illegal immigrants here need to be sent home, and further incursions stopped. I don't want to deny anyone the American dream, but it should be done within the law. I also think building a wall is an _incredible_ waste of money. Anyone who thinks a wall is going to stop illegal immigration is asking for false security.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I don't want to deny anyone the American dream<< I don't think that anybody these boards wants to deny the American dream to anyone either. But we just can't absorb the 4 billion poor people in the world. Even just absorbing Mexico alone is unfeasible. Anyway, here is some food for thought: In July Mexico will be holding their presidential elections. The favorite to win is Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (AKA AMLO). He is a far left candidate who will be extremely unfriendly to the US if he wins. If you think that illegal immigrants are bold and daring today, just wait!
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<I don't think that anybody these boards wants to deny the American dream to anyone either. But we just can't absorb the 4 billion poor people in the world. Even just absorbing Mexico alone is unfeasible.>> I agree. That's why immigration should be kept to those willing to go through the proper channels.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It seems to me part of this very complex problem is the complete disparity (and thus disconnect) between legal and illegal immigration. It IS hard to come here legally; yet those who come due to poverty, family members already here, US employers recruiting them to come, or whatever reason, find that once they get here they can usually remain, as long as they stay underground. One thing I don't hear anyone in Congress talking about is making LEGAL immigration easier. If you made it easier to immigrate legally at the same time that you beefed up border enforcement and put some real teeth and actual enforcement behind the laws that make it illegal to EMPLOY an illegal worker (IMO, the one thing that will most help stem the flow - if it becomes dangerous to hire illegal workers, fewer companies and individuals will)... then there's less disparity between the two, and more people could choose to come here legally, get on the books, pay taxes, etc. And once you have someone on the books, you can require that they do certain things in order to remain here, such as learn English, demonstrate continued employment, etc. It seems to me this MUST be part of the equation, or the people desperate enough to come here will just continue to do it illegally and remain underground, with all those attendant problems.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Living in South Florida I'm not sure how much easier I want immigration to be. Our newest high school was built for a capacity of 2700 and, due to the explosive population opened with nearly 4,000 students. Our schools have portables on top of portables. We don't have enough teachers. Our test scores are some of the lowest in the nation. Until we can be prepared for the incoming tidal wave I think it is best not to loosen the rules.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It would only work if in conjunction with stemming the illegal flow. The idea would be to make illegal immigration harder (for the immigrants AND the employers), and thus replacing it with legal immigration, on the books. Easier said than done, of course. But no one is talking about trying to redress the balance like this (because, on first blush, no one wants to make immigration "easier"). Yet I think it has to be part of the equation; because if it's not, the people who benefit from low-wage labor and don't want to see it stop will make sure that after all the talk, nothing substantive is done.
