Originally Posted By ecdc >>In addition to our soldiers, I hold our public school teachers, the one's that aren't slaves to the teacher's union, in very high regard. And I should I have friends and family in the profession.<< And you hold soldiers and teachers in high regard despite the flaws you probably see in the system. You know, for example, that there's bad soldiers. You know that there's bad teachers. You know your tax dollars are wasted sometimes within the military or public education. And yet, you (wisely) don't let those short-comings, or those bad apples, ruin your entire perception of teaching or the military. You know that most teachers are hard working and want what's best for their students. You know most soldiers are dedicated Americans who risk their lives to protect our country. So why, for the love of all that is holy, do you not extend that same reason and rationale to the rest of government? Why these silly blanket statements? Why demonizing every single thing government does because you had to wait in line at the DMV (a life or death situation, no doubt!)? Why is it so hard to just acknowledge what the rest of us acknowledge - that government isn't perfect, that there will be mistakes, but that these mistakes are no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. There are some very simple, straight-forward facts that all the cynicism about government in the world can't erase. 1) The United States is woefully behind most other industrialized nations in healthcare, and theirs are government-run; and 2) People are dying because of lack of care. Using excuses about cost, job loss, government incompetence, etc., doesn't change those very real facts. Those problems can be addressed and they can be solved. Not perfectly perhaps, but they can be solved. So I have yet to hear a single excuse that comes anywhere NEAR overriding those two facts: that other countries can do it, and that people are dying. Convince me that the excuses of cost are worth having people die, and I'll shut up.
Originally Posted By DAR <<So why, for the love of all that is holy, do you not extend that same reason and rationale to the rest of government? Why these silly blanket statements? Why demonizing every single thing government does because you had to wait in line at the DMV (a life or death situation, no doubt!)?>>' Because they have minimal experience with this. <<There are some very simple, straight-forward facts that all the cynicism about government in the world can't erase. 1) The United States is woefully behind most other industrialized nations in healthcare, and theirs are government-run; and 2) People are dying because of lack of care.>> People are going to die regardless. And they're also dying because overall we don't really take good care of ourselves and it's got nothing to do with lack of health care. It's lifestyle choices that we all make. Which I'm not against, but people have to be ready for the consequences.
Originally Posted By DAR You know what I'll just shut up. Apparently complete strangers lives are more important than my own. I should be concerned about their well being instead.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "You know what I'll just shut up. Apparently complete strangers lives are more important than my own. I should be concerned about their well being instead." And here you go yet again, acting like a 10 year old.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>You know what I'll just shut up. Apparently complete strangers lives are more important than my own. I should be concerned about their well being instead.<< No one has said that. You're drawing two opposing choices that don't have to be made. We're the richest nation on the planet. Our healthcare is substandard compared to countries who are not as rich as us. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there's a solution in there somewhere. And no one has told you to shut up. Contrary to what you may think, I very much like having you around. I think most people feel that way. But you can't expect to say something like, "the military has less bureaucracy" and not have people respond. I get that it's tough if you share an opinion and 20 different people respond to tell you why you're wrong. But it doesn't mean we're trying to assimilate you into our Borg-like liberalism. It just means we disagree and are saying why.
Originally Posted By DAR <<You're drawing two opposing choices that don't have to be made. We're the richest nation on the planet. Our healthcare is substandard compared to countries who are not as rich as us. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there's a solution in there somewhere.>> Well one solution would be to get more doctors and nurses into the the health care field. Because the current one's are going to be overworked thus ensuring some substandard care. A solution would be to give prospective students some aid.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Well one solution would be to get more doctors and nurses into the the health care field. Because the current one's are going to be overworked thus ensuring some substandard care. A solution would be to give prospective students some aid.<< Agree 100%. Another (of about a bazillon) crises we're facing in our healthcare industry is a huge shortage of family practitioners. Medical students today are specializing because it's so much more lucrative and less busy, running from one patient to the next. Unless something changes my children's children will be waiting months to see a primary care physician. So anything more serious than a routine check-up will send people to the emergency room. A bad situation all around.
Originally Posted By DAR It is a bad situation and that's why people are upset. And look take away all that ridiculous stuff like Death Panels that's complete b.s. But I think there's valid concern , when we're paying for (and yes I'm aware when this all started) two wars, how many banks, the auto industry and who knows what else, maybe this wasn't the best time introduce this.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>maybe this wasn't the best time introduce this<< It's as good a time as any. More and more people are finding themselves without health insurance in this economy, and employers have been scaling back the bennies for the last 20 years. >>And look take away all that ridiculous stuff like Death Panels that's complete b.s.<< Thank you for acknowledging that, DAR. I really do, believe it or not, want to have this thing discussed by people on all sides of the question because there ARE many valid concerns that need to be considered and worked out. Neither side has all the answers. But the death panel stuff is a political sideshow by people whose only interest is in seeing the president "fail" and it's important to call it what it is -- you did.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer There's nothing in any of the health care proposals that is going to eliminate competition, DAR. Nothing. Hospitals and doctors will still be competing for market share. Insurance companies will still exist, and there will be more people who will be able to afford their products. You're getting all worked up about something that isn't even on the table. Heck, even "single payer" Medicare is actually run by insurance companies - the government just sets the regulations and guidelines for it. Private enterprise is still going to be heavily involved in what ever package passes.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And I would think adding tens of millions of new customers as insurance company clients would mean increased revenue, and increased job opportunities in the industry as well.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer DAR, in post 82 were you saying that the government has minimal experience in running health care? You do know who oversees the insurance of about 45 million people on Medicare, don't you? And who runs the CMS certifications for hospitals (and which hospital workers dread more than the Joint Commission)? The federal government has tons of experience in health care. State and local governments have run hospitals for decades and longer, and usually have public health programs. They have more experience directly delivering health care than any insurance company ever did.
Originally Posted By ecdc BTW, I think concerns over costs that DAR and others have raised are completely legitimate. We do have to have a way to pay for this, and Obama has been too vague and he's (understandably) been too unwilling to explain how it will work. But I don't think concerns about cost are valid reasons not to do it. I think we can find reasonable solutions.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Exactly, 2oony. Medicare has been manna from Heaven for the insurance industry over the last fifty years. And for hospitals. And for the subscribers.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer It's unlikely to be worse, DAR. I work in health care, and I've seen first hand the huge administrative burden that hospitals have to try to keep up with insurance company requirements. Each company has their own set of hoops to jump through in order for the hospital or doctor to get paid. The amount of administrative staff that hospitals have to hire to deal with insurance is a huge drag on our health care spending in this country. One of the reason hospital bills are so high is because of the amount of support staff necessary to handle billing issues. When I started with my current employer a dozen years ago, I worked in a sleep clinic with two doctors. We had 11 people who did nothing but insurance authorizations and billing. 11 people. The government isn't going to run these programs. They are going to outsource it, just like they do Medicare. They are going to outsource it to Premera, and Regence, and Blue Cross, and United Healthcare, and Aetna... the infrastructure is already there. If you like your current insurance plan, you'll keep it. No one is going to get in your way. If you don't have insurance, you'll be able to get it. You'll be able to choose what kind you want. Public option, maybe, or a private insurer. There is nothing in the health care plans on the table that points to a government takeover of health care. This is about insurance, about making sure that people aren't going to lose their homes because their kid got really sick.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But nobody can convince me that it's going to be better.<< Depends on how you define "better." If you've got a premium, super-duper plan right now, you'll most likely be able to keep it. And on top of that, the plan will have regulations in place so that you can't be denied due to a pre-existing condition, booted unfairly. But let's assume the worst. Let's go real right-wing, batshit crazy for a sec. Let's say CIGNA and Wellpoint are shunted out of business by the federal government and we end up with a system like the British. Not even single-payer like Canada or a hybrid like France. Full on, socialized medicine - doctors and nurses are employees of the state. Will it be better? Maybe not for those people with the cadillac of plans right now. Maybe they will have to wait longer. Maybe they won't get a prescription for every ache and pain they perceive. Maybe, just maybe, even rich Americans will start flying to Switzerland for top notch surgery. Will it be better for the uninsured? You bet. Will it be better for our children? Absolutely. Will it be better for our children's wallets when preventative medicine and better care begin to turn the tide on the obesity epidemic? Yes indeed. Will it be better when cancer rates and diabetes rates begin to fall? I think so. Will those things happen tomorrow? Nope. Will they happen in my lifetime? Probably not. Is it worth doing? Abso-frickin'-lutely.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***the military is run by people who know what they're doing and has the least amount of bureacratic influence.*** I'm sorry, DAR. But I have to LMAO at you. Dude, what do you think bureaucratic influence is, anyway? Is it, perhaps, continuing to requisition useless, outmoded, zillion dollar jets that Congress invariably approves because it means jobs in their home states...and has been doing so for decades? Would you recognize that as bureaucracy? Would you acknowledge that the military is playing its part in said bureaucracy? ***And we work best as a country when the government let's us be.*** After the great crash just recently, you still think this? Or didn't that influence your way of thinking one tiny bit? You listen to Ronald Reagan too much (and he screwed the infrastructure of America forever (so far) with his "no government" crap).
Originally Posted By Mr X So now that others have pointed out the VAST amount of experience that the government has in administering health care, DAR, are you going to rescind your "Because they have minimal experience with this" quip?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But nobody can convince me that it's going to be better.*** Ah, and here we have the typical "last retort" of DAR. Nobody can convince you, DAR, because you've already convinced yourself otherwise (facts be damned). Right?
