Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Epcot is moving in the right direction and I'm excited about the future for this great park. )< that to me is the encouraging part of this also. EPCOT is such a unique park, restoring the life and energy there would be just excellent - and the signs are there this is happening....
Originally Posted By ChiMike Me too. To be honest Lee, I haven't been excited to visit EPCOT in a long while. I gave JII v 3.0 the benefit of the doubt and was let down, I gave M:S the benefit of the doubt and was utterly devestated, I had already experienced Soarin' 10+ times... So this really has me optimistic about the future. Not that it means much or carries any weight, but after being so negative towards WDI for, what, 6 years it is nice to be happy about something. As far as I am concerned this and Everest have really given me something to look forward to again.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>WHA?!?! Since when does Disney just give carte blanch on what used to be so enforced that pop culture would make fun of it. "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY"<< Since they ignored pop culture and made it OK to cut to the front of the line at most popular rides, maybe? >>^^ No worries. It sounded more like TDLFAN than you which is why I was surprised.<< Oh Lee, give it up. I would love to take all the credit in the World for everything most people say about WDW, but I am not the only one who sees there are some problems... and I not biased like you since I don't have to look good to friends in Imagineering or marketing by saying how terrific everything is at WDW, so guess who comes off more credibly here... I know your opinion of me is very low, but honestly, I could not care less to even be bothered.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Since they ignored pop culture and made it OK to cut to the front of the line at most popular rides, maybe?<< I hear you. It's so depressing to see how there are more people now who are rude, selfish and oblivious to how they affect others.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I hear you. It's so depressing to see how there are more people now who are rude, selfish and oblivious to how they affect others.< this is true however wherever you go. When I was at the King Tut exhibit at the Field Museum, some of the rude behavior was even there.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Oh, sure, it's not Disney specific at all. It's public place specific. It's just depressing to see how after all this talk about how we are a better society, a more understanding society, a more intelligent society then years past, our manner have gone in the exact opposite direction.
Originally Posted By brotherdave Well, with the recent additions of Nemo and Soarin', I'm starting to like the trend AWAY from the thrill rides at EPCOT. Finally, two experiences that the whole family can enjoy, which is what ALL of EPCOT Center was like in it's early years until Body Wars was added in 1989.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 It was the only ride there ( prior to aging and now the teacups) that made me ill every time I rode it, and it seems others had similar issues..... Well for your sake I hope they re - open it, but I will not be riding if they do
Originally Posted By basas <<Well for your sake I hope they re - open it, but I will not be riding if they do>> Unfortunately, neither will I! I won't have the chance to go down in Nov/Dec. I think the last time I was on it was at least 2000, if not before.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And, thus, my over-flowing positive remarks about this project. This is how it should have been done for the last 10 years. This, seems to me, is the complete opposite of the JII redos. Not only in the speed but actually bringing the guest to a full environment that doesn't rely on lots of black walls. That doesn't take away track, but adds to it.>> All of that is true. It is very successful as a quality C-Ticket type attraction. It also will appeal to kiddies and parents. But I must point out that the extra track did take the place of one theater and hydrolaters ... and one negative I haven't seen mentioned is you do get far less views of the actual tank than you did before with the old sea cabs, which not to digress but a couple were sitting at Mouse Surplus this week.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Epcot is moving in the right direction and I'm excited about the future for this great park.>> I'm cautiously optimistic myself. Soarin and the Land redo was a huge step in the right direction. Nemo is a smaller step, but a good one as well. There still is the matter of WoL ... and dealing with Imagination yet again ... not to mention World Showcase needs a significant addition. But, yeah, I can understand your optimism with some of the stuff coming and hopefully even more.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Shameless plug: TDLFAN's report from USF's Horror Nights is up. Go read in "Other Theme Parks" section of LP.
Originally Posted By leemac <<There still is the matter of WoL ... and dealing with Imagination yet again ... not to mention World Showcase needs a significant addition.>> That is Epcot's downfall ultimately. Its size and scale make it very expensive to do anything constructive with. Plus it dates quicker than the other three parks at WDW. That said I don't think WS needs an addition at all. A refresh of the existing attraction line-up (coming with Mexico and Canada and at least 2 other pavilions in the near future) will be sufficient. I'd rather see FW getting fixed first. First thing: get that purple dragon out of Imagination! and totally retheme the pavilion. The original didn't meet the mantra of Epcot and every redo has missed the mark too. Time for a new concept, period.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>with the old sea cabs, which not to digress but a couple were sitting at Mouse Surplus this week.<< Thanks Spirit, I had asked if any had found there way over there.. I noticed that they took out the tank view for the EAC. To me this is acceptable since the viewing area upstairs remains open. I thought the hydrolaters were a great trip, but I rather see them come back with an updated execution. Perhaps in like in JTTCOE. I would tell you that as Jim mentioned earlier, the entire flow and setup for TLS from the mood setting queue to the movie right to the hydrolaters to the troubled omnimover was top game. I don't think today's WDI could design something so majestic and grand for it's time period while at the same time being efficient. No offense to the Everest team, because they hit a 2-run Homer, but there is a difference between doing another mountain, another rollercoaster, another aging of a facade, and building from scratch what an Epcot pavilion invoked from guests of 1982 or 1986.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>That is Epcot's downfall ultimately.<< I would say it's an impediment. But ultimately? No, ultimately, it's downfall was that people who were better at corporate politics rather than using their imagination thought they could out do some of the greatest attraction designers ever to work in the industry. That is what hurt EPCOT, people whose ego had them thinking their fringe likes and dislikes would overrule the entire Disney guest base’s established preference for quintessential Disney. Ultimately, that was EPCOT's downfall. Not having a 15 year old attraction. No, it was what replaced the 15 year old attraction. >>Its size and scale make it very expensive to do anything constructive with.<< So M:S was not constructive? >>Plus it dates quicker than the other three parks at WDW.<< 10 years, 12 years, 15 years, is not dating quickly. To me that is just an excuse. At least the original stuff didn’t date as fast than Barry's masterpiece, Innoventions, or EPCOT would have been in a lot more trouble. Even if the topic was British Literature they would still want to replace an attraction that is 17 years old in a park where mostly everything has the same age. To me, this outdating too fast has always been a bad excuse. The problem is they didn't want to dream big, they wanted something easy and marketable. Imagination doesn't date too quickly, come on! No, for JII they needed to update the effects and Dreamfinder. When you have Tom Morrow at DL and TimeKeeper at MK you can't still have Dreamfinder; I think a lot of people understand that. They should have just updated the original ride, but a certain person who didn't understand why people spent thousands of dollars to visit Disney decided she was going to make thier bones on it. Well that, and that the Epcot updates where coming at the worst time in WDP&R leadership; Paul understood some things but he was the worst guy to oversee what made a Tomorrowland or a Future World successful. He couldn't understand the novelty of that theme park genre. So instead, he and others simply wrote the concept off. Kodak didn't want something 100% opposite of what was there. They just wanted something that was fresh that would represent their brand well. So much for that. >> The original didn't meet the mantra of Epcot<< And nothing added since has, so now all of a sudden we are going to hold EPCOT's mantra up as a shining quest of glory? >>Time for a new concept, period.<< See, this outlook Lee is similar to WDI telling the public what the public is going to want, what the public is going to like. I wouldn't have a problem with that if WDI could actually anticipate what the public wants, like Walt, correctly. I feel like I'm being patted on the head and told to go to my room and wait for Santa to show up. Only that Santa then shows up with a Barbie who has no hair because Santa ran out of money. Well, if you ask Santa, Barbie being bald was strictly a creative move on his part. I know that was your simple opinion. I'm not directing this at you. But I'm just trying to show that the public has spoken. They spoke when v.2 went online and the complaints started coming in. Disney didn't listen correctly when they tried again w/ v.3, not because Disney=bad, but because Disney=incapable of understanding it's own market, it's own product, and now even after v.3 is considered a dud people are still blaming the ORIGINAL concept. I'm dumbfounded. Does anyone at WDI understand, even today, even 6 years later, that the ORIGINAL concept worked? That it is every attempt to deviate from the ORIGINAL concept that has been a complete, utter, failure. A huge waste of money. Not that WDI should ever design to what the public specifically asks for, but it hasn't stopped them in the past and I don't see why everyone is so stubborn now and can't understand that a new concept isn't needed. That it is just as risky considering the disconnect between WDI and what amounts to mass-appeal. Why can’t the public get what they want? They’re the ones funding the paychecks. Who ignores their own market? So much for always going by the surveys, eh? What's so hard in bringing Figment and his attraction back with a 22nd Century update?
Originally Posted By leemac <<I'm dumbfounded. Does anyone at WDI understand, even today, even 6 years later, that the ORIGINAL concept worked? >> I disagree with virtually everything in your post, Mike but this is key to where I 100% disagree. The carrousel was clever but the rest of the attraction was average-to-terrible. No coherent storyline, it dated very quickly and didn't lend itself to FW. I don't believe Journey ever had a place in the original Epcot pavilion line-up. I wish WDI hadn't tried to reinvent it but started with a brand new concept. <<At least the original stuff didn’t date as fast than Barry's masterpiece, Innoventions, or EPCOT would have been in a lot more trouble. >> Do you see the irony in that sentence? Barry Braverman was responsible for a lot of Epcot in those early years but you pick his '94 creation over the rest of his Epcot projects going back to the original line-up?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I disagree with virtually everything in your post,<< No Prob. It's not the first time. It's nice to see an opposite extreme, helps clarify what I really think. >>The carrousel was clever but the rest of the attraction was average-to-terrible. No coherent storyline, it dated very quickly and didn't lend itself to FW.<< I think the storyline was pretty clear. You accompanied Dreamfinder and figment on a journey to the Dreamport because the idea bag was full. At the dreamport you saw everything that Dreamfinder had just conjured up during the carousel. You traveled through the dreamport which was sort of an Indiana Jones warehouse depository. Sure it's not literal like Peter Pan, but I think most people "got it" even those who wouldn't be able to put words to and describe what I just did. I would agree that the finale was lackluster. >> I don't believe Journey ever had a place in the original Epcot pavilion line-up.<< Couldn't disagree more. It helped add to the variety and that is what EPCOT 'should' be all about, a variety of experiences. Besides, I think history has proven that it was a VERY good thing to have at EPCOT Center in the 80s and early 90s. >> I wish WDI hadn't tried to reinvent it but started with a brand new concept.<< If they couldn't have kept their grubby mits off of the original setup, yes, I too would have much rather had perferred a whole new thing. Which is exactly what I thought I was getting until I walked into the Imagination Institute and my suspicions of a soul-less WDI were confirmed. >>Do you see the irony in that sentence? Barry Braverman was responsible for a lot of Epcot in those early years but you pick his '94 creation over the rest of his Epcot projects going back to the original line-up?<< Yes, but maybe I should have been more clear. Barry was a glorified exhibit designer in the initial projects. Things like Imageworks. I give him full credit for being apart of the EPCOT Center team. The reason I bring up '94 is because the limits to his depth were exposed on that project. In the here and now, it was successful but it became outdated (by it's very nature) far quicker than JII or Horizons. He was good at what he was good at, and that's about it. Certainly not a renaissance man. A much better team contributor than anything else. So, I'm not critical of what he did with Innoventions-EPCOT, what my point was is that the same voices who one would often hear the "stale, outdated" line from had just as bad of a track record with their own projects. So ironic? Yes.
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<I'm dumbfounded. Does anyone at WDI understand, even today, even 6 years later, that the ORIGINAL concept worked?>> Regardless of my and many other Disney fans opinions are, Journey Into Imagination had terrible attendance towards the end of it's life. It was nearly always a walk on with many empty cars before and after you. If you look at the Unofficial Guide to WDW it got terrible ratings as well from their surveys which I believe to be among the best at getting a true sample of what the average guest thinks. Personally, I loved Journey into Imagination, Horizons and World of Motion. I wish the attraction that replaced them would have been more to my liking. But in the end there is no contest that the average guest like Test Track better than World of Motion and Mission:Space better than Horizons. It pains me to say that since it means we'll get less attractions like the original Epcot, but unfortunately it's not always about art. Disney is in the business of entertaining everyone, not just the selected few that treat theme parks as a legitimate art form.
