Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>First thing: get that purple dragon out of Imagination! and totally retheme the pavilion. The original didn't meet the mantra of Epcot and every redo has missed the mark too. Time for a new concept, period.<<< Of course. There's no place for Imagination as a theme in our culture, or in our future. We're destined for mediocrity, and the creative process has no importance for the survival or advancement of the human race... IMAGINATION as a theme, has more relevance to EPCOT Center, and more importance, possibly, than any other single theme of Future World. In a very real sense, it encompasses all OTHER themes of Future World, in that it prompts and reminds us that we must dream, in order to DO, anything of value. In order to build a world worth living in. IMAGINATION as a theme was wonderfully executed and explored. As a ride, it broke down the creative process: observation, absorption, inspiration, recombination, and creation, in a purely visual and melodic way. The IMAGE WORKS was a great way to follow up on this theme, stimulating us to create with odd technology, friendly technology. It reminded us that this whole part of our nature is organic and FUN. The MAGIC JOURNEYS film was all about dreaming... daydreaming, letting our minds WANDER. This attraction definitely needed updating WELL. But it was done piecemeal. The original incarnation, Lee, was far from the ill-fitting debacle you describe, and was purposed early on as important to the mission of EPCOT Center. How you can suggest that not even its THEME is appropriate, is utterly incomprehensible, and kind of suspect.
Originally Posted By leemac <<This attraction definitely needed updating WELL. But it was done piecemeal. The original incarnation, Lee, was far from the ill-fitting debacle you describe, and was purposed early on as important to the mission of EPCOT Center. How you can suggest that not even its THEME is appropriate, is utterly incomprehensible, and kind of suspect.>> Funny that sounded exactly like Kodak's original pitch for inclusion in Epcot. The theme itself fits fine in Epcot's overall mission but the execution of the pavilion feel way short of what Future World promised. I never like the attraction and I know plenty of people who worked on the pavilion who also feel very "eh" about it. The failure was the attraction itself. There was little way they could have made it relevant. The piecemeal approach was wrong (even though getting rid of the terrible Dreamfinder character was paramount) but they should have started from scratch. dlmusic thanks for that info about guest surveys. I'm not familiar with that site but it backs up what I have always thought. That the average guest has always either disliked or not got Journey. It is a fanboy obsession much like people pining over Horizons which never found its feet with ordinary guests. World of Motion is a different story though.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Regardless of my and many other Disney fans opinions are, Journey Into Imagination had terrible attendance towards the end of it's life.<< >sigh< No it didn't. It's capacity was no longer maxed out, it's attendance levels were higher than a lot of other stuff that wasn't deemed unpopular. It's overall attendance decline matched that of EPCOT's overall itself. In comparison to Seas, Energy, Land, WoL, and Mexico it was doing GRAND. So you can't blame less bodies on JII alone. Blame it on those that made the entire EPCOT experience less attractive. If it was soooo uNpOpUlAr then why did they receive the most complaints about it's closure and replacement then Disney has ever received for any theme park related issue???????? Again, the argument is not that it should have continued running. It is that Disney would have been FAR better off updating and refreshing the attraction than inflicting the wretched Imagination Institute on those who had better imaginations. >>If you look at the Unofficial Guide to WDW it got terrible ratings as well from their surveys which I believe to be among the best at getting a true sample of what the average guest think.<< Sure, the same guides that poorly rated SSE & TGMR. The same guides that trashed AKL until they realized their readers all have their own brain and can make up their own minds. Excuse me if I don't take those guides very seriously. Especially considering they get most of their information from all of us. >>Personally, I loved Journey into Imagination, Horizons and World of Motion.<< Then why did you buy into the spin so easily? Seriously, I'm not trying to bicker at all. Seriously? Because all of the CMs who posted when JII was shut down verified that it was still one of the better attended destinations at EPCOT. WDI insiders all verified that it was a creative issue, rather than operational for it's demise. Eisner, Pressler & CO. didn't want the campy, loved, relic of the 80's JII interfere with their precious, graveyard inspiried Millenium celebration. >>I wish the attraction that replaced them would have been more to my liking. But in the end there is no contest that the average guest like Test Track better than World of Motion and Mission:Space better than Horizons.<< TT has been better received than WoM but in my book they should have integrated some of ACT I and ACT II of WoM into the beginnings of TT. Would have made a much more dynamic attraction. So far, M:S hasn't really caused many to think of success, confetti and party poppers. Most guests won't ride M:S a second time. Having to basically shut down the ride system that cost millions and millions and millions have helped alleiviate the problem, but to me that's even worse! I would say more guests were willing to and re-ride Horizons on future trips. Another examples of an attraction, Horizons, that needed something done with it, but Disney missing the boat a second time with it's replacement. >>Disney is in the business of entertaining everyone, not just the selected few that treat theme parks as a legitimate art form.<< No it's business is to make money though entertaining everyone. They have been poor business men and women with their JIYIWF&@YBSH version 8.2 and Missioneath business plans. They are complete BUSINESS failures.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>and I know plenty of people who worked on the pavilion who also feel very "eh" about it.<< I wonder how many guests feel "eh" about some of the stuff THEY have done. --- Oh, my goodness, the misinformation popping on here is insane. >>dlmusic thanks for that info about guest surveys. I'm not familiar with that site but it backs up what I have always thought.<< What information??? What site??? What evidence? Other then referencing an unnamed Unofficial Guide to Disney I saw nothing other than one person's opinion. The unofficial guides didn't perform a guest survey on JII. They judged reactions in places like this (lp.com was not present at the time in question). The guides have thier own prejudices and agendas. Hardly scientific or official. I'll trust the actual CMs who have nothing to gain OR lose by saying that the ride saw more guests in a day then MANY other EPCOT offerings. If people don't want to trust me with that, then oh well. >> That the average guest has always either disliked or not got Journey.<< What EPCOT did you visit? Because I know during the 80's JII WAS the destination in EPCOT. You've got to be kidding me Lee! IS this the kind of stuff that is truly believed in the halls of WDI??????!!! No wonder they are so out of touch in what the guests want in the theme parks. Not trying to go nuts, but between being told that guests disliked JII from the go and that the Soarin' ride system should be employed in each park I might need a valium! >>It is a fanboy obsession much like people pining over Horizons which never found its feet with ordinary guests. World of Motion is a different story though.<< If it's easy to write off history as fanboy obsession, then go ahead. George McGinnis designs for fanboys but Sue Bryan has all the answers. Her stuff is the stuff dreams are made of! BTW, you have that backwards Lee. WoM saw less guests per hour than Horizons. Not Capacity, but ride counts. So the idea that it never found it's "feet" with guests is something I can't get my hands around. Maybe in 1998 when Disney was reverse promoting it. But what about the other 14 years?
Originally Posted By leemac <<>>Regardless of my and many other Disney fans opinions are, Journey Into Imagination had terrible attendance towards the end of it's life.<< >sigh< No it didn't. It's capacity was no longer maxed out, it's attendance levels were higher than a lot of other stuff that wasn't deemed unpopular. It's overall attendance decline matched that of EPCOT's overall itself. In comparison to Seas, Energy, Land, WoL, and Mexico it was doing GRAND. So you can't blame less bodies on JII alone. Blame it on those that made the entire EPCOT experience less attractive. >> Mike spin it however you like. I totally disagree with this. Journey was very poorly attended, period. I gues you have figures to back up your claims, right? You happily rip on dlmusic about some "guest surveys" but offer nothing else up to back up your own claims. They just come off as fanboy ramblings. I've been here and debated this at length with a zillion people and don't see much joy for me in rehashing this. Journey is long gone and not coming back. Hopefully the existing Journey will also be torn out and something more attractive to guests put in that space. I'm hoping that doesn't involve Dreamfinder and Figment.
Originally Posted By leemac <<>> That the average guest has always either disliked or not got Journey.<< What EPCOT did you visit? Because I know during the 80's JII WAS the destination in EPCOT. You've got to be kidding me Lee! IS this the kind of stuff that is truly believed in the halls of WDI??????!!! No wonder they are so out of touch in what the guests want in the theme parks. Not trying to go nuts, but between being told that guests disliked JII from the go and that the Soarin' ride system should be employed in each park I might need a valium!>> Rose-tinted history is all I can say. Journey was THE destination in Epcot, right? Please the average guest came off purplexed as to what it was supposed to be. Same nonsense that people trot out about Toad and 20k at MK. Anything to push their bias agenda forward.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Most guests won't ride M:S a second time.>> Your evidence for this, is what? You have absolutely nothing to back that up. Mission:SPACE has done just fine. It got people back into Epcot for a while, definitely hasn't had a huge amount of staying power but is still popular. Mike you have lost me entirely in your argument as you try to twist your own POV into the general public. Perhaps you need to spend more time with average guests to get a feel for what they want from a WDW experience as your points are at polar opposite to what the guest satisfaction surveys reveal. I'm disappointed that you couldn't back away with the ranting and constructed a more level-headed and measured response.
Originally Posted By CMDad <<Rose-tinted history is all I can say. Journey was THE destination in Epcot, right? Please the average guest came off purplexed as to what it was supposed to be.>> Actually, I have to chime in here. No official numbers or facts, but just based on my own experience. When EPCOT first opened, JII always had the longest lines whenever I was there. It was the only attraction that I often skipped because the queue was typically well into the courtyard and I often saw the queue spill out and almost reach The Land. Only Horizons line ever struck me as even approaching the length. Probably WoM as well. True, ridership fell off as the attraction aged - but so did every EPCOT attraction.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Mike spin it however you like. ... I gues you have figures to back up your claims, right? You happily rip on dlmusic about some "guest surveys" but offer nothing else up to back up your own claims.<< The minute Johnny wants to make his archives available at Intecot I will glady point you to the correct threads. I'm sure if you really want the TRUTH you could ask for access to the ride counts. Or head over to the Yahoo groups and check out posts from January 1999. I can also get Planet7 on here to discuss the crowds he saw as an JII CM. >>I totally disagree with this. Journey was very poorly attended, period.<< Like I said, what EPCOT did you visit. It was the #1 attraction up until at least 1992. It might have lost that distinction when TLS and WoL opened but that would have only been for a short period. They were not selling The Land shirts or The Land coloring books. >>They just come off as fanboy ramblings.<< Way to marginalize what I am saying. I don't think I am saying, "BRING BACK DREAMFINDER!!!" I'm not asking for boycotts or petitions. Just trying to correct some horrendous spin and poor memories. The attractions was VERY popular. Like other things in the end of it's life it became a little stale. Disney replaced a stale 17 year old attraction with a brand new one. A brand new one that was worse then the 17 year old stale attraction. WHAT DOES THAT SAY>!>? >>Rose-tinted history is all I can say. Journey was THE destination in Epcot, right? Please the average guest came off purplexed as to what it was supposed to be.<< They might have not been able to tell you exactly what happened during the attraction, but the same could have been said for anything even POTC. The same could have been said about Maelstrom or Mexico. Unless it's Peter Pan the guest isn't going to grasp the linear journey. So why wasn't Maelstrom shut down? Why didn't Mexico also get it's Millenium plans executed upon? >>Same nonsense that people trot out about Toad and 20k at MK. Anything to push their bias agenda forward.<< Do I have a bias? Absolutely, and so do you Lee. The hope is that a happy medium is found among all of us. That Disney hit that medium that appeals to all of us. The only issue though, is that my bias has been validated. My bias existed before Roy even knew he needed a SaveDisney.com My bias existed when everyone else loved Michael. My bias was present when people were telling me what an idiot I was for thinking the gutting of JII was a bad idea. That the new one was going to make JII look like a Kmart to a Neiman Marcus. My bias was telling people 8 years ago that EPCOT and MGM needed a course correction and that AK was a great park. So I feel pretty validated in my bias. The bias of wanting Disney to be above their peers in what they do. The bias of wanting Disney to treat their employees well. TO promote competent people into decision making positions. The bias to lay off the number crunchers who fancy themseleves creatives but really don't understand what appeals to ALL of Disney's guests rather than the fringe who find joy in every little alteration. >>Your evidence for this, is what? You have absolutely nothing to back that up. Mission:SPACE has done just fine. It got people back into Epcot for a while, definitely hasn't had a huge amount of staying power but is still popular.<< AHHH, "a while" Yes, Lee, a while. A while enough to check out the new attraction that cost so much. The new attraction that is blasting on resort TV and billboards as the #1 attraction in all of WDW. To quote Al Weiss, the attraction that will be more popular than ToT. So yes, for a while, it brought a bump to EPCOT. Then people realized what a subject attraction it was and began to ignore it. That it didn't do justice to the misleading, fancy CGI graphics used to advertise it nationwide and on Resort TV. I would agree that if it got people back to EPCOT again, to be exposed to World Showcase once again or SSE or whatever then it did some good. But those people were introduced again to things designed by those guys who design for fanboys. When they wanted fun thrills they still went elsewhere. More likely MGM or IOA. -- And before anyone says it, yes, it's not black and white, there are some folks who are in love with Missioneath. I understand and acknowledge it.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>ctually, I have to chime in here. No official numbers or facts, but just based on my own experience. When EPCOT first opened, JII always had the longest lines whenever I was there. It was the only attraction that I often skipped because the queue was typically well into the courtyard and I often saw the queue spill out and almost reach The Land. Only Horizons line ever struck me as even approaching the length. Probably WoM as well. True, ridership fell off as the attraction aged - but so did every EPCOT attraction. << Thank you. I guess I might not be "twist[ing my] own POV into the general public. Perhaps you need to spend more time with average guests to get a feel for what they want from a WDW experience as your points are at polar opposite to what the guest satisfaction surveys reveal." --- >>I'm disappointed that you couldn't back away with the ranting and constructed a more level-headed and measured response.<< I think I have laid out some good counter views. I think I haven't gone the route of "you're wrong!" and then walked away. I have flushed out all of my statements. Frankly, as much as I would by you a drink any day, I am a little disappointed that you either have such a bad memory of the 80's EPCOT -or- really didn't hang out there much but are still speaking with authority. Because I don't think I am speaking out of school. I will say this much, I DID hang WITH MANY MANY average guests and I am very comfortable saying that JII was popular and people weren't "disappointed by it".
Originally Posted By brotherdave Just from a guest's experience and observation (mine) during the 1980s and early 90s, Journey Into Imagination, Listen to the Land, and Spaceship Earth seemed to have the longest lines in all of the Future World attractions. You had to ride either ride early or later in the day to avoid the lines. The other pavilions had lines, but not nearly as long as these three. Spaceship Earth's long lines were simple, it was the first and last attraction that people encounter as they entered the park. It may not have the lines today like Test Track and other newer rides, but, it still does have a "healthy" line today from what I've witnessed. Listen to the Land/Living With the Land has always seen long lines, especially during mealtimes. Most everyone experiences this attraction before or after eating in the food court of the pavilion. Great way to relax after eating. This still holds true today, and is even bolstered more because of the enormous popularity of Soarin next door. Journey Into Imagination (original) always seemed to have long lines during the early part of the day and afternoon during the first decade or so. My feeling as to why, aside from it being a great attraction, was that it was truly the only truly 'kid-friendly' attraction in all of EPCOT Center, especially in the days before the infiltration of the Disney characters and other attractions that kid's can enjoy now. It seemed that almost every child had to have a Figment plush, hat, t-shirt, etc. after experiencing the ride. Figment became THE souvenier icon of EPCOT Center. He was a Disney character that was ONLY available at EPCOT, and nowhere else. He was lovable and childlike, which was probably part of his enormous popularity. Eliminating him from the attraction was a HUGE mistake for the company, so much so, they had to bring him back. The current version of the ride is better than the second version, but, Figment never seemed to regain the appeal that he had in the original. He seems more of an 'annoyance' in this version than whimsical in the orginal. Also, his popularity now must compete with established characters in the park, especially now with Nemo and friends 2 pavilions over. Should he disappear completely? NO, not in my opinion. He can still be a very lovable character for children. Perhaps if the 'whimsy' of the original attraction can be combined with some new elements and state-of-the-art special effects that's encompassed in a good storyline, Figment's popularity might be restored.
Originally Posted By leemac <<It was the #1 attraction up until at least 1992.>> Even based on that timeframe that is less than a decade of Journey's operations. It cost a small fortune to develop and quickly fell out a favour. I'm not suggesting it was never popular but the notion that is was still even remotely relevant to the '90s audience just misses the mark by a mile. On that logic Epcot should be refreshing product every decade. If that was the case it would swiftly be closed down by WDW. It wouldn't even be able to justify its own existence.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Nice post Dave. You echoed my own feelings in a far better manner. >>Even based on that timeframe that is less than a decade of Journey's operations. It cost a small fortune to develop and quickly fell out a favour.<< What's Dinorama's excuse? What's SGE's excuse? Or even Alien Encounter's excuse? How about DCA? I guess using the JII 'standard' they are all failures. Well I'm glad the DCA debate is finally settled. I was being geniune with the pre Epcot '94 threshold. But that doesn't take away that even during the dark days of EPCOT's mid-late 90's JII still saw more guests than almost any other pavilion. It's numbers simply declined along with EPCOT's. >> On that logic Epcot should be refreshing product every decade.<< NO. That was the logic of Eisner, Goodman, Pressler, et al. No, my logic is that Disney take it's time, utilize the right folks, and create things that are so universally relevant that they last longer then all the bandaids we have been subjected to.
Originally Posted By leemac <<What's Dinorama's excuse? What's SGE's excuse?>> Dinorama was about capacity and increasing the length of guest stays at the park. It accomplished both. Whether you like the execution or not it added a true family attraction in Triceratop Spin and a spinning coaster in Primieval Whirl. Neither particularly work for me but I understand why they are there. SGE is just a creative failure plain and simple. It happens. Everyone I talk to about it at WDI just shrug and say I don't know what went wrong or even right with it. There won't be any more fixes is all I can say. It still has decent lines though throughout the day. Very decent.
Originally Posted By leemac <<He seems more of an 'annoyance' in this version than whimsical in the orginal.>> Funny you say that as I always found him annoying. A spoilt brat of a character with no redemption.
Originally Posted By leemac As I'm likely to be away from the boards for the next month I guess my point is that you either love or hate Journey. It never did anything for me and I certainly didn't lament its loss. I'm not fond of either of the two changes since then but I do believe a completely fresh approach without the need to rely on DF and Figgy is required. But first get Wonders of Life and SSE sorted. Imagination can limp along for a while longer. Both of the other FW pavilions need some TLC.
Originally Posted By CMDad Sorry, but Figment never struck me that way. Unbridled enthusiasm perhaps ... and that is the wonder of a child ... which Figment always struck me as. As for the relevence of Imagination ... without it how would the future happen?
Originally Posted By CMDad <<As I'm likely to be away from the boards for the next month I guess my point is that you either love or hate Journey. It never did anything for me and I certainly didn't lament its loss. I'm not fond of either of the two changes since then but I do believe a completely fresh approach without the need to rely on DF and Figgy is required.>> I do disagree with your outlook ... but don't deny you are entitled to it. <G> Personally, I know so many who love the character of Figment and none other than you who don't ... though I know you are certainly not alone. But then - that's what makes life interesting, no?
