Originally Posted By TDLFAN Dear Inspector, I really am trying to understand your gripe but I feel it's silly. We have to suspend disbelief anywhere AT ANY Disney park as far as I know!! Why does it bother you so much about the time frame in the TOT storyline is simply amusing to me.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 Okay, I understand that we have to suspend some disbelief every time we enter a Park or a specific Land. I understand that other people are apparently not jarred by the discontinuity in the TOT storylines as I am. But be that as it may, my immediate reaction on experiencing TOT for the first time was, "Great set! Great effects! Great ride! Too bad about the story. It really weakens what COULD have been a great overall experience." I continue to think that about DCA's TOT. A huge and otherwise impressive investment results in a much less powerful experience than it would if the story were just tweaked a bit. The need to suspend disbelief to enjoy a Land is inevitable. But that doesn't mean that the Imagineers can't construct individual attractions that are as smoothly integrated as possible. To be honest, I am amazed that I seem to be the only person with this concern. LP threads have gone for hundreds of posts with people arguing over the appropriate font to be used on a Main Street sign, or how a change in costume detail ruins a land, or with endless speculation on What Would Walt Think. There are hundreds of passionate posts about how the "magic" is dwindling in the Parks, about how thematic cohesiveness is being lost, about things not being right anymore. And yet I get called out for wishing that the TOT storylines made more literal sense.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I just don't see why it is a problem for TOT, but not Pirates of the Caribbean. That is also set in another time, but (simply based on what you have said) the problem is exclusive to TOT. If you have the same problem with all attractions, that is completely understandable, since it is one of those things that most people just don't thik about, but if you're calling TOT out specifically, I don't get it.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan I don't really expect them to make it 100% real. Imagine...how many Japanese people do you actually see in New York? Like someone said above, we have to use our imagination. Besides, it's not a big deal.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 In fact, I DO have a similar problem with Pirates. How is it that we float across a Southern Bayou, plunge down a fall, and suddenly find ourselves in the Caribbean? What's the deal with the animated skeletons? Etc., etc. But I give Pirates a little slack. I understand that the final product is the result of a number of changes that were successively tacked onto Walt's initial plan for a walk-through. I understand that the use of a technology that was absolutely breath-taking at the time distracted everyone -- designers and public alike -- from the lapses in its storyline. I admire the detail in the scenes. Rather than focus on its weaknesses, I remember that it is over 40 years old. I appreciate its non-sensical collection of wonderful scenes for the feeling that they collectively give. I appreciate it as a classic. I have higher expectations for Tower of Terror. For one, it is not a Walt Disney "classic;" its design is not untouchable. There's no reason that every TOT produced since the first could not have improved upon the TOT before it. Secondly, Pirates is a simple "ride-through." It doesn't really attempt to make us anything more than spectators. Tower aims higher; it addresses us directly. And its story just doesn't work for me. It doesn't help that in recent years I've seen that King's Island, the Luxor Casino, and Paramount's "The Star Trek Experience" have all created very successfully immersive attractions that carefully incorporate the guest into the attraction. Each of them could have relied upon their technology to wow the crowd -- as Pirates and Tower do -- but instead each made the effort to create an experience in which guests would not be distracted by thoughts of, "Well, wait a second, this could never happen because the guy next to me has a cell phone." [Once again, I can't believe I'm feeling defensive arguing for storytelling integrity on an Disney-fan website.]
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Besides, it's not a big deal.>> Now THAT's the Disney spirit, TDR_Fan! Are you by any chance an exec at WDW?
Originally Posted By Mr X Star Trek is incredible. I thought it was totally on par with any of the best "state of the art" attractions that are offered by Disney and Universal. And yes, VERY immersive (I wasn't so impressed with the newer "Borg" show though...the original kicked butt and "Borg" felt more generic to me)... Plus, who knew that SuperDry can speak Klingon!? Or that he likes to hit on Klingon chicks?? (I don't think she was really into you though, SD...maybe more grunting next time?)
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 LOL, X! You must go out sometime to a 7-11 with SD, pick up a couple of six-packs, and then retreat to a roof-top to enjoy. After a while, WorldDisney and I were like, "Alright, dude! Enough 'Klingon' already!" See, I speak Klingon but WD doesn't, so it was feeling just a little exclusive. But I understand that it was just the beer talking; SD is a good guy and didn't mean any offense.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Well gee, how do I follow up? You two act as if I was the only goob on those two adventures - I think that's far from the truth. And for the record, I suspect that WD knows his horta from his tribble more than he lets on.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<Now THAT's the Disney spirit, TDR_Fan! Are you by any chance an exec at WDW?>> You took my statement the wrong way. I was just saying that having Japanese people take up 98% of the guests makes it hard for them to create perfectly accurate environments. What are they going to do? Let only Americans in the American Waterfront? Like I said, it's not a big deal considering what they've already done.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Hey TDLFAN, GREAT review!!! Makes me want to get back to Tokyo ASAP!! Also, checked out a few pics, man that Tower is freakishly HUGE!!! The people litterally looks like insects in your pictures and I seen the thing MANY times in person myself, last time in April. But, I forget how big it really is!! Great job dude!!
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA I'm hearing you Inspector. And I hear your gripes. Typically, I don't make my way to the Tokyo Resort threads, since I've not been. In fact, I got called out for daring to have an opinion about the TOT in TDS since I was only looking at the video. I also get called on to the carpet for not having the desire to travel to Japan. It's downright blasphemous, I'm told, and a diservice not only to my family, but the entire country of Japan. There's a bit of a clique here in these parts, and that's okay. But, I hear you, and your story concerns are valid re: Tower of Terror. I feel the same storyline downfalls exist with the stateside TOTs too. My favorite is after the ride is over, and you're unceremoniously dumped into that concrete hallway. BOING! Show over. In CA and FL, what a great opportunity to add some element to the ride that ties in with 'The Twilight Zone' -- those great endings to the shows that always have a twist. But, anytime you have a criticism of a Disney theme park ride, you have to expect some 'push back' huh? My favorite is 'it's no big deal.' Ay caramba... I got a whole ration of crap on these boards when I dared suggest that 'Grizzly River Rapids' at California Adventure could use a few animatronic animals to flesh out the details. Everything from 'it's not a big deal' to 'that ride doesn't need them, it's supposed to be more real' to my favorite 'you're going too fast on the raft to see any animals anyway, it would be a waste of money.' I get such a wonderful education here. When 'Pooh' opened, and I criticized that ride, I was told that 'you just don't get it, you're thinking about it too much.' But I digress. Charge on Inspector! Don't apologize for looking around the corner to see if WDI did it's job.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan But in Tower of Terror's case, what can you do? It's already as realistic as you can get, now you want to limit how the guests look and do too? How many attractions actually flow perfectly? Practically none. Like someone said above, the timeline is messed up when people use cellphones and by the way they dress. Look at Indy, isn't that supposed to take place in the 1930's, yet you still see people using cell phones and wearing modern clothes. There's no possible way to make it flow perfectly. I think an attraction has reached its goal when it has created a perfectly themed environment with only CM's matching the timeline/environment. It's impossible to control guests.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Thanks for the photos, TDLFAN! Awesome. I love that they jettisoned the Twilight Zone stuff and created a new story -- cool. Throw me in, though, as one who thinks at least the stateside ToT's feel incomplete -- no 'twist' at the end. That's the Twilight Zone trademark, and I can't understand why it isn't there. But I LOVE, love, love all the details apparent in the photos you shared of the TDS version. Just must be amazing to see in person.
Originally Posted By Kayoss <<<Star Trek is incredible. I thought it was totally on par with any of the best "state of the art" attractions that are offered by Disney and Universal. And yes, VERY immersive (I wasn't so impressed with the newer "Borg" show though...the original kicked butt and "Borg" felt more generic to me)...>>> I have to agree. I went to Paramount's launch party for the Borg attraction, but have to admit I ended up experiencing the original attraction 4-5 times vs the new one (that I only did twice). The part with the borg is cool, but the 'beaming' portion of the original attraction is by far the coolest "how the HECK did they DO THAT" moment in any attraction I've seen so far.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 THANK YOU, Jim in Merced! I hope other posters, too, can understand that: -- Story matters. Ultimately, technology cannot make up for a lack of storytelling unity. -- I can criticize elements of an attraction without meaning, "This attraction totally SUCKS!" It is entirely possible to be wowed by, and to appreciate, everything that is wonderful about an attraction and STILL be disappointed in certain elements of it. -- "It's no big deal" is a mind-set that is better suited to the (now defunct) Nara DreamLand than it is to Disney Parks. As LP Posters have argued so vehemently, details, cohesiveness, and storytelling integrity IS a big deal.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<But in Tower of Terror's case, what can you do? It's already as realistic as you can get, now you want to limit how the guests look and do too?>> No. I don't want to make guests change their clothing. And I don't presume that we'll be able to make them change their behavior. Have you paid attention to ANYthing I've written on this thread? Or have you just moved into "defensive" mode and stopped thinking? What I want is for the attraction designers to anticipate what guests will be wearing and doing and to incorporate that into the attraction's storyline. Casinos in Las Vegas did it. King's Island did it. Why is that concept so hard for you to understand? I've already stated one way in which modern-day-dressed tourists could seamlessly be incorporated into the story of the stateside TOT's. Did you miss that? I've already acknowledged that the Tokyo Park could not adopt that same strategy. Did you miss that? <<Look at Indy, isn't that supposed to take place in the 1930's, yet you still see people using cell phones and wearing modern clothes.>> Agreed. I can't think of a way to incorporate cell phones into Indy without disrupting the storyline. (Then again, I'm not an Imagineer.) Ergo, the whole ride experience suffers for me.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan Sorry. When I first entered this thread, I skimmed through the most important stuff and only now did I see your post about making the tours modern. My mistake and I agree with you. But what would you say about StormRider, where guests are supposed to be in the future? I don't suppose clothing matters as much in the storyline. That brings me to this point: Are there any attractions at TDS that do incorporate guests into the attraction?
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan Edit: I suppose the two attractions in Mysterious Island might fit into that category. Since that timeline is completely imaginary and full of false theories, I can see how people can have high tech items such as cell phones. People in the Jules Verne era were far more free willed and advanced than people today. Why even Captain Nemo has some far out gadgets that far exceed modern inventions, at least from reading the details in JttCotE's queue! With this in mind, cell phones seem to have no problem fitting in the storyline. As for clothing, people in that era believed in freedom of thought, hence why everybody dressed differently to their own stlye. These two attractions are the only ones I can possibly see fit your description.
