Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Have you paid attention to ANYthing I've written on this thread? Or have you just moved into "defensive" mode and stopped thinking? >>> What would you call this phenomenon? I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's very frustrating when it happens. One aspect of it seems to be that with some people, if you say one thing that they disagree with, they purposefully interpret everything else you say so that they can have the maximum amount of disagreement or offense at it seemingly without regard to what you're actually saying. I assume that they do this so that they can validate their position of thinking you are wrong, ironically even when you happen to agree with them. Very frustrating indeed.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>-- Story matters. Ultimately, technology cannot make up for a lack of storytelling unity.<< I still do not understand your gripe about this I57. The storyline flows just fine. maybe if you rode it, you'd realize why I feel your point of view is mute, but that's just me. And wait until you see the killer Hightower Hotel stationary I bought...
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<I still do not understand your gripe about this I57.>> First of all, let me say that I'm sorry that my comments about Disney's various "Tower of Terror"s have taken your topic... well, off-topic. I truly don't mean to distract from the fact that you have posted a wonderful pictoral and narrative review of a truly impression addition to TDS. But let me try to clarify my point of view one more time. First... I have a hard time with any Land or attraction that tries to convince us that we've been transported in time without explaining the disconnect between what we're supposed to believe and what we actually witness. For this reason, Main Street USA and FrontierLand are the two least successful Lands in my Disneyland experience, immersively speaking. Main Street: yeah, I'm supposed to believe I'm in the early 20th century. But the biggest entity there is the Emporium, which sells holographic spinners and rings me up at a computerized terminal. JUST like they did in 1905. Frontierland: yeah, I'm in the Old West. And the person next to me is wearing a Nike t-shirt. And the gun I'm firing uses an infra-red beam. I'm in the Old West. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. The other Lands seem less dependent on timeframe to me, so the cell phones around me seem less jarring. Adventureland takes you to a different place, not necessarily to a different time. Fantasyland, Critter Country, and ToonTown are timeless. Tomorrowland... well, that's a whole 'nother story. I think of DL's Tomorrowland as an exhibition area for the possible future. DLP's theme works better for me: "Look at what we used to think of as the future." What would be even cooler as a Tomorrowland would be the version that was proposed for DL's Tomorrowland: aliens have landed here and helped create the attractions you see. But whatever. My point is... Any Land that tries to convince you that you have travelled back (or forward) in time is NOT convincing to me when I look around and see my fellow tourists in Shakira t-shirts snapping pics on their T-Mobile cell phones. Second... The DCA TOT totally SUCKS at creating a credible storyline. First you're a tourist waiting in a line outdoors. Then you enter a decrepit hotel lobby. [Why is it decrepit?] Then you're invited into the Library. Weird things happen. [Now where and when are you?] You're sent to the boiler room to wait with a thousand other tourists -- who are bored in line and talking about what happened on the last edition of "American Idols." [Okay, so I guess I'm in the present now.] And then a pale-faced, old-fashion-dressed operator buckles you into an elevator. [What? Am I supposed to be in the 1940's now?] And then there are the weird visual scenarios before the Big Drop, which don't really explain what the hell has supposedly happened to you. It's cheap storytelling. "Cheap," meaning that they haven't bothered to make it make sense. It doesn't flow. They don't give us an identity to follow through the story. Are we tourists at a theme park in 2006? Are we hotel guests in the 1940's? Did we start out tourists in 2006 and get beamed back to 1942? It's just not explained. It's as if they decided, "To hell with the story, the elevator fall will make them forget about the holes in the plot." Third... I love, love, LOVE, the changes they've made in the TOT attraction at TDS! BUT... they ask us to believe that we're in 1912. They stage an AMAZING show in the Study to spook us out. It's 1912, and The Idol is about to reek revenge! And then... they throw us into a holding tank with fellow guests who are using cell phones. BZZZZZZZT! Total illusion killer! While we wait, it's not 1912, is it? It's 2006. Maybe we can't understand the conversations of the Japanese guests around us, but we can understand that "Hello Kitty" t-shirts and auto-flash cell-phones didn't exist in 1912. Fourth (and final for this thread)... TDS had the opportunity to create a TOT that transcended the storytelling weaknesses the stateside attractions suffer from. But while TDS provided AMAZING improvements in the structural details of the attraction, and integrated a wonderful twist on the story... it ultimately fails as total experience -- FOR ME -- because it ultimately asks us to believe that we are in 1912 while it subjects us to the sight of our fellow tourists snapping souvenir cell-phone photos. Sorry. The "haunted hotel tour" idea is great. But I'm not in 1912 if my fellow tourists are using cell phones to IM the person who's standing 20 people in front of us. If TDS had set this attraction in a modern day Land it would have totally kicked butt.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN It could not set TOT in modern times because the entire American Waterfront port is based/designed around the early 1900s...and doing so would have been a breach in that Port's theme and storyline. The fact that the TOT storyline is set at that time means a cohesive and immersive experience that encompasses the rest of the area as well. I for one am glad they did NOT compromise that premise of American Waterfront.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 And my point is that since they decided to locate TOT in American Waterfront, the story fails. Cell phones did not exist in 1912. If OLC would have located TOT in another (modern-day) area of the Park, the story could have made sense.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <DLP's theme works better for me: "Look at what we used to think of as the future.> Then I guess everything in Mysterious Island and Port Discovery works for you, especially since they both rely on science fiction. One is an imaginary time period based on Jules Verne while the other is based on the future that never was.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>And my point is that since they decided to locate TOT in American Waterfront, the story fails. Cell phones did not exist in 1912.<< I don't feel the story fails just because guests use their cellphones while being there. That seems to be your problem only, which is what I have been trying to tell you. Guests use cellphones everywhere now, so I don't feel Frontierland fails because of that. Get my point of view?
Originally Posted By Mr X I understand Inspectors point, but I don't really see anything that could be done about it. I mean, people have been coming to Disney since 1955 dressed in current styles, walking around with balloons and mouse ears, snapping photos, and basically not "fitting in" with the surroundings...it's just the way things are. I don't think that ToT is special in that regard (or Frontierland or Main Street in particular either...since even those "timeless" other lands don't look as though they should be filled with gawking tourists). The only way to "fix" that, would be for guests to be totally immersed in the fantasy with special costumes and themed parts to play...ain't gonna happen. Speaking of the DisneySea tower specifically, I have to say I like the way it "fits" into its surroundings MUCH better than Florida or California, because MGM and DCA are both "small" scale parks with these big honkin towers just plunked down...whereas American Waterfront (and DisneySea in general) was built on a grand scale to start with. With the giant ship nearby and the whole NYC vibe, the Tower just seems to belong there. Maybe that's cause it was in the works from the beginning?
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Speaking of the DisneySea tower specifically, I have to say I like the way it "fits" into its surroundings MUCH better than Florida or California, because MGM and DCA are both "small" scale parks with these big honkin towers just plunked down...whereas American Waterfront (and DisneySea in general) was built on a grand scale to start with. With the giant ship nearby and the whole NYC vibe, the Tower just seems to belong there.<< EXACTLY!! It's what I stated in post #65. Inspector needs to go to TDS and see for himself to understand why his rant is silly. Then go to WDSP and see why TOT does not belong there.
Originally Posted By fredddy I think Inspector will be happy the day every visitor will be dressed like in 1912 !
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Get my point of view?>> Here's what I get: YOU don't find that guests' use of cell phones distracts YOU from the illusion of being in the past. I DO find that guests' use of cell phones distracts ME from the illusion of being in the past. You don't. I do. Please stop telling me I'm silly for having a different personal reaction than you have. I'm not wrong. We just have different reactions to this.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan Face it, there's nothing they could've done without severly affecting the land. You should just pretend that you and everybody else are "teleported" into that port. That's what I use to base my judgement. Otherwise, how could we skip from continent to continent in within several mintues? Not without a time portal of course. By the way, I'm pretty sure that's what any Cast Member will tell you if you questioned them about this topic.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I guess that it is one of those things that most of us have just gotten used to and ignored over time. Since there is no feasable way to have guests (or all merchandise) really fit in with the land, we just look at the theme, other than the stuff that they can't control. As cool as it would be to see the land completely filled with people in period outfits, it would make it much more difficult to get around the park and enjoy it in general. "Adventureland takes you to a different place, not necessarily to a different time." It is actually supposed to be set in the 1930's, but as time has moved on since Indy opened, that theme has become increasingly less apparent. There is still the swing music in the Jungle Cruise queue, and the general look is the same, but a lot of the 30's references (like the entirely redone JC script) have just faded away with time.
Originally Posted By Shadow wolf Oi, this has turned into one interesting thread. First off, great job on the PTR! Second, I57 the irk that you have with the theming of the attractions and the guests themselves. I really have to wonder if you think there are ANY attractions out there that fit with the guests themselves? I'm not asking this to be mean, I'm just wondering.
Originally Posted By Mr X Actually, Ferret, I wish the merchandise was more "land specific" like it used to me (mocassins in Frontierland, for example). It's so generic now there's no reason to bother going into the various shops because they're all the same!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< YOU don't find that guests' use of cell phones distracts YOU from the illusion of being in the past. I DO find that guests' use of cell phones distracts ME from the illusion of being in the past. >>> I57, you have an interesting perspective. It does seem that the issues you have would put a great deal of limitations on what could be accomplished in a themed environment. It made me think about other forms of entertainment and performing art. For example, when watching a movie or a play, it's more or less a given that you tune out the fact that you're in a theater in rows of seats and not in the environment of the show. When the movie or play is outdoors in the desert, the fact that the audience is inside, in the dark, and in air coditioning doesn't ever seem to distract from the show. I don't know that I agree, but it's an interesting perspective. I guess I'm glad that this issues doesn't bother me, otherwise there'd be a great many Disney attractions that "wouldn't work" for me.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>It's so generic now there's no reason to bother going into the various shops because they're all the same! << Well...yes and no. At WDW, definitely yes. At TDR, while they are replicating the same bad practices, you can still find some land specific stuff. Go to the Westernland shop and see their western gear fashions and things, including mocassins. So not all hope is lost yet in Tokyo. I should know this since I keep an eye on that everytime I go to TDL.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Please stop telling me I'm silly for having a different personal reaction than you have. I'm not wrong. We just have different reactions to this.<< Obviously. I still feel it's silly to pass judgement on any attraction or storyline that comes with it just because guests choose to use their cellphones in the queue. Maybe Disney should tell people to stow them away before entering the queue... but in respect to Japan, everyone now takes photos with their cellphones and do text messaging because of the "talking" restrictions imposed on cellphone use in many areas. Maybe I have grown so used to that in Japan that it doesn't bother me as much. I still enjoy the overall show at this particular TOT.
Originally Posted By Mr X Regarding cellphones in general, I'm never bothered by the always polite use of them in Japan. "Manner Mode" means a lot here. But man, as soon as I arrive in America these days, the FIRST thing that strikes me is the myriad of obnoxiously loud conversations by frequent fliers in suits bearing laptops and other devices...the airports seem about twice as loud as they used to be. Didn't particularly notice this when last at Disneyland, but if it's anything like the airports these days that would distract and annoy me a LOT (since it already does in airports, where it's already busy and noisy and "modern"). Sorry, slightly off topic (but relevant though, I think). Any other frequent international travellers notice how extreme this has become in America? As far as cellphones as cameras, it's a little weird at first but, after all, what's the difference if someone holds up a phone or a camera? And cameras have been around since 1955 blighting Disney from the very start!
