Originally Posted By Manfried <<It is unfair to NO ONE.>> Well yes and no on that one. Those who know the Fastpass system intimately and how to "game it" make it unfair.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub i am feeling angry with FP since it has caused two lines to form on LP and now we are drawing battle lines of attack. So this proves once and for all FP is harmful to Disney friendship and should not be used on LP.
Originally Posted By danyoung Mmc, I see no reason for anyone to be getting hot over this. I feel a certain way, others feel a certain way, and we discuss. It's only when some folks take it to a personal level of attack that it gets nasty. I really enjoy the discussion, and have learned a lot from opposing points of view. But when someone states that I'm not capable of understanding a rational argument, then I get a little testy.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I hate fp with a Passion. I have stated my reasons many times before. I have given evidence of the test performed on crush coaster many times before, on how it not only doubled stand by waits for the ride with fp and created a 20 min queue to get one of those stupid pieces of paper, but also doubled the wait time on a number of other attractions in the vicinity. But I am still told I am wrong. I am a believer in a common good. And fp disrupts it. But just like the selfish tell me I am wrong about supporting public medicine and other left wing ideologies, so too I am told fp is fine. So I shall save my debating energy for what I find important. And simply back out of debating how bad I think fp is for the parks. I will say this however, at Easter we went to DLP, Europa park and phantasialand. Out of curiosity, I made enquiries of how many were in the park of a number of cast members. DLP plays with capacity and has fastpass and queuing became tiresome. Europa park is a show room for Mack where they run everything at capacity and have single rider but no fastpass, and the longest we waited for anything was 30 minutes, many things were 10 minutes. In fact, we were able to do 28 attractions in one day (impossible at DLP). And back to my query on admissions? The crowd level were comparable. My hypothesis based on findings? Best way to reduce waits is to have numerous attractions running full capacity even at quieter times, lots of diversion entertainment ,and no fp. You know, like used to run things.
Originally Posted By u k fan I have queued for 20 minutes to get a FP for Crush at WDSP. With or without FP 20 minutes is still the least amount of time I've ever waited for that attraction. I have no clue what anyone was thinking when they made the capacity so low for that ride!!!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Lol, that is what I said when the plans were first released. People then said I should wait and see. And yet, just like TSPL and my capacity concerns, I was right.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub or funny I find myself questioning the "convenience" of FP every time I have to walk all the way to the Space Mnt.machines at DL. Even early in the morn it seems to be a weary uphill walk and they are always on the opposite side of wherever I end up especially upon return time! AM I the only person that thinks it is ridiculous I have to be at DCA first thing in the morn to get my WOC FP and then have to return to "hang" out in that area later that evening? Seems to be more trouble than it is worth.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Honestly? I'm calling BS here. I remember the time before fastpass, and I always got every big ride done without waiting in terribly long lines.< and I'm calling BS on this type of selectiove memory-- those of us who remember this so very well- standing in 1 hr + lies with little kids in summer because it was the only time we could go... I'm tired of hearing that somehow people like Dan and I were imagining this..that's bull. Now when the kids were really young we used to go 'off season' occasionaly- and yes lines were shorter than they are in late June and July... but please stop trying to diss the fact that this was true, I'm old, but my memory is very very clear on this again this is not every ride- attraction- but yes on the headlines
Originally Posted By ChiMike ROADTRIP>>Everyone has an equal chance of getting a Fastpass. It is unfair to NO ONE<< DANYOUNG>>Excellently put, Trippy, and it makes perfect sense, Morva. EVERYONE HAS AN EQUAL CHANCE OF GETTING A FP. The only people at a disadvantage are the folks who show up to the parks at a lazy 2 or 3pm. And pre-FP they'd be faced with long lines on the most popular attractions. Advantage - FP! << Ahh, the ol' fairness angle. When all else has been said about Fastpass, we're left with "..but ...but .but, it's fair!" It's not fair, and it's about to get a whole lot more unfair in the coming months. Fairness would be derived from the idea of equal access. There is not equal access. CMs will print some for their friends, tour guides will print a whole bunch of them for their groups (and also not be required to return at a specific time), for a time FP dreams were given away at predetermined early morning points of the day, DVC hands out free FP tickets if you take a tour, and on and on. Most of the unfair FP distribution centers on a PLAY FOR PAY basis, where Disney takes advantage of the perk (it's totally their right to do so, I support them 100%) to reward certain sections of the guest pool. The PLAY FOR PAY will be getting a whole lot worse as NEXTGEN comes online and folks who have Deluxe accommodations get more FP privileges than those who Own the Magic, and those who can only afford sleeping behind Pongo's behind. I have no qualms with how Disney uses what they consider to be a great guest management tool. However, I don't for one instance believe the FP distribution system is FAIR. It is far from it, it was evolved from the original design with some of these perks in mind, and it is unfair to the family who simply showed up at the gate, dropped $1200 on park hoppers, and will not be partaking in VIP tours or wasting time on a DVC presentation. FP is not fairly distributed. That's okay. Baby Swap is not fair to the rest of the guests, but that is okay. I think I have made my points at how awful FP is, I don't need to fall back on a fairness crutch to know I'm right.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <ORDDU: I'm sorry, Road Trip, dear, but that logic make no sense. There is no way that everyone has an equal chance of getting a fast pass. You believe it because you want to believe it. But it's simply not the case. Go back and read what sjhym333 had to say about this if you want a more sound reasoning about the entire matter. < they are available to everyone equally -IF they want toget there at opening. For those who want to sleep inetc.- then no they don't, but they COULD. Choices
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>As for the second floor of Imagination... the current ImageWorks has just as many activity stations as the old second floor did... there just isn't as much open space.<< That is not true.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>and I'm calling BS on this type of selective memory-- those of us who remember this so very well- standing in 1 hr + lies with little kids in summer because it was the only time we could go... I'm tired of hearing that somehow people like Dan and I were imagining this..that's bull. << Well, I was there more than just once a year in June, and I can tell you the reason for the long lines at peak times pre FP are completely separate from the post-FP reasons for long lines today. I will take it a step further as SJHYM did and state again that in the 2011 world of Disney theme parks, when FP is shutoff on an attraction the standby line drops considerably with all other things equal. Space Mountain proved this when it first reopened after its overhaul and FP was not back online. Days later when FP came back, the wait times skyrocketed. So, frankly, it doesn't matter what the lines were like in 1986. There were only two theme parks, there were only two thrill rides at the resort. Every ride was no older than 15 years. A Disney experience back then was completely timed differently than it is now.
Originally Posted By ChiMike In case you missed it... >>they are available to everyone equally -IF they want toget there at opening. For those who want to sleep inetc.- then no they don't, but they COULD. Choices<< Ahh, the ol' fairness angle. When all else has been said about Fastpass, we're left with "..but ...but .but, it's fair!" It's not fair, and it's about to get a whole lot more unfair in the coming months. Fairness would be derived from the idea of equal access. There is not equal access. CMs will print some for their friends, tour guides will print a whole bunch of them for their groups (and also not be required to return at a specific time), for a time FP dreams were given away at predetermined early morning points of the day, DVC hands out free FP tickets if you take a tour, and on and on. Most of the unfair FP distribution centers on a PLAY FOR PAY basis, where Disney takes advantage of the perk (it's totally their right to do so, I support them 100%) to reward certain sections of the guest pool. The PLAY FOR PAY will be getting a whole lot worse as NEXTGEN comes online and folks who have Deluxe accommodations get more FP privileges than those who Own the Magic, and those who can only afford sleeping behind Pongo's behind. I have no qualms with how Disney uses what they consider to be a great guest management tool. However, I don't for one instance believe the FP distribution system is FAIR. It is far from it, it was evolved from the original design with some of these perks in mind, and it is unfair to the family who simply showed up at the gate, dropped $1200 on park hoppers, and will not be partaking in VIP tours or wasting time on a DVC presentation. FP is not fairly distributed. That's okay. Baby Swap is not fair to the rest of the guests, but that is okay. I think I have made my points at how awful FP is, I don't need to fall back on a fairness crutch to know I'm right.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 So I have a FP for Splash Mountain that tells me to return between 4 and 5. Meanwhile another person gets in line at the same time I get my FP say around 10 and by 11:15 they're getting on Splash. I still have another 4-5 hours before I can ride and I run the risk of maybe the ride is down. Or maybe something happens and I have to head back to the hotel and miss out on riding. Yeah I can see how it's not fair to someone who didn't have the FP.
Originally Posted By ChiMike You've got to be kidding. You could have joined that person in the line for an equal wait under a first come first serve basis. You forgo the standby line for a promised shorter wait in the future, thus increasing demand placed on the capacity of the attraction. Your price for the shorter future wait is the delay in boarding the attraction. All that above is a reality, but it does not speak to the idea that someone that day might have been able to get a FP under less strict conditions than you, yourself, did. Someone else might be carrying around two FPs at the same time. Where as you pulled that Splash FP and cannot get another one in your hand for 2 hours. That is where the system is unfair.
Originally Posted By u k fan I've been reading this thread with interest and what I do find interesting is that it's taken 200+ posts to get any mention of the fact that Disney offers FP's as perks for certain guests. This is where FP really does become a two tier system, not with guests at the park as I agree that every guest at the park that day has equal access to FP's. It's their choice to arrive late or not participate. I'm just wondering why this very valid point (FP's as perks) was not mentioned when instead we get umpteen posts about closed areas/attractions which seems much less relevant to me!!!
Originally Posted By danyoung >I don't need to fall back on a fairness crutch to know I'm right.< Mike, I'm not falling on anything, nor am I saying that fairness is the only issue. The things you quoted comprise a very small portion of the FP tickets distributed on any given day. I stand by my statement - anyone can get a FP.
Originally Posted By danyoung >You forgo the standby line for a promised shorter wait in the future, thus increasing demand placed on the capacity of the attraction.< I think you missed on this one, Mike. There is no increase in demand - only a displacement of exactly the same demand. If a person jumps into the standby line, they provide the same demand as one who waits with a FP. Now, if a CM gives unfair preference to the FP line, then that indeed is unfair. If the system works like it was designed, and if people come back when they're supposed to and not just sometime later in the day, then the system is fair.
