Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<All that above is a reality, but it does not speak to the idea that someone that day might have been able to get a FP under less strict conditions than you, yourself, did. Someone else might be carrying around two FPs at the same time. Where as you pulled that Splash FP and cannot get another one in your hand for 2 hours. That is where the system is unfair.>> But the fact that someone else was given a FP without waiting for it doesn't really bother me. I'm still going to be able to see an attraction I want to see with a shorter wait than the standby line. It is my choice whether or not I want to use it. If I would rather get in the standby line and see it now I still have that choice. In fact I can see it now and come back later and see it again using my Fastpass. Life (and Disney) isn't "fair". The WDW guest seeing WDW with a 7-day Hopper is paying less than HALF as much per day to see the parks as someone using a 2-day Hopper. Is that fair? Is the fact that someone can afford a 7-day WDW vacation as opposed to just a 2-day WDW vacation make it fair that they only have to pay half as much per day? Probably not. But oh well... if I don't like it I can go elsewhere... which I did when I was in Orlando for a couple of days following my Disney Cruise. I went to Universal instead since they offered a 2-day hopper at far less cost. Damn glad I did!! Thanks Disney! LOL
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<All that above is a reality, but it does not speak to the idea that someone that day might have been able to get a FP under less strict conditions than you, yourself, did>> Like if a stranger gives a FP they can't use to another person. That's not my problem nor is it Disney's.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>>>I don't need to fall back on a fairness crutch to know I'm right.<< Mike, I'm not falling on anything, nor am I saying that fairness is the only issue.<< Not saying you are. I am saying that there is enough evidence to prove that FP is awful as a Disney service and violates at least two of the Keys as far as the entire guest population is concerned. So, I don't need to fall back on the fairness debate to prove that FP shouldn't exist. >>The things you quoted comprise a very small portion of the FP tickets distributed on any given day. I stand by my statement - anyone can get a FP. << With that said, FP is unfair, since there is not true equal access, and that disparity will grow in the months to come. This is all fact. The definition of "equal" is fact. If fairness is derived from equal access, logic would dictate that, then, FP is unfair. It's not a personal attack on those who use it. I USE IT! I just know it is unfair while I feel that I have to use it. I don't try to kid myself that there aren't MANY breaks in protocol by users standing next to me who might have more than one FP or expired FP or got a bunch of FPs from one of the daily personal tours.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>>You forgo the standby line for a promised shorter wait in the future, thus increasing demand placed on the capacity of the attraction.<< I think you missed on this one, Mike. There is no increase in demand - only a displacement of exactly the same demand.<< Go back to the post that RoadTrip said "GOT IT". Same exact principle. Let's see if I can do this again: DDMAN says 1 hour 15 mins. for Splash - NO WAY!!! In PRE FP times: DDMAN skips the attraction and says he will check back later in the day to see if the line has improved. DDMAN comes back later in the day, say 4 or 5pm using his example above, the line is still at 1 hour. He skips it again. Splash's capacity was constant all day long, so his choice not to pay a "price" which is an hour of his time, causes his demand to remain uncaptured and uncharged against Splash's Supply (Capacity). Conclusion in this scenario: That's one LESS person to have stood in line for Splash on that day. That's one LESS guest demanding some of Splash's capacity. [Now say, he comes back at 4 or 5pm and the ride is a walk on. Still, okay, because their is perishable capacity at that point that would otherwise go unused. But let's skip that branch and stick with simple demand/supply economics.] PRE-FP, DDMAN did not ride Splash that day. He didn't because the price of one hour was too much of a price to pay for the limited supply (capacity) of the day. With supply constant, price high, demand is inversely lower. Now WITH FP: DDMAN says 1 hour 15 mins. for Splash - NO WAY!!! DDMAN skips the attraction standby line and instead pulls a FP for Splash with it instructing him to come back between 4 and 5pm. DDMAN comes back later in the day, 4 or 5pm as a FP return window using his example above, the standby line is still at 1 hour. This time he doesn't skip Splash though. This time he gets in the queue for Splash. Why? Because he doesn't have to wait an hour. So now instead of the pre-FP days, in the FP world, we have a scenario with a 1 hour wait at 4 pm PLUS one additional DDMAN. An increase in demand. Wha-la. Splash's capacity was constant all day long, so his choice to use FP at an artificially lower "price" than others, causes the overall "price" of the attraction to go down. When price goes down, and supply is constant, what does economic theory state...... Yep, Demand goes up. Which reconciles with our analysis above. Conclusion in this scenario: That's one MORE person to have stood in line for Splash. That's one MORE guest demanding some of Splash's capacity. PRE-FP, DDMAN did not ride Splash that day. He didn't because the price of one hour was too much of a price to pay for the limited supply (capacity) of the day. >>If a person jumps into the standby line, they provide the same demand as one who waits with a FP.<< Yes and No. On the surface yes, but in true economics there is a price elasticity that affects demand and supply. FP bends the elasticity curve. Perhaps without FP, that person would have never entered the queue that day. Without FP, that person might not have entered the queue that day with many others who would not, and then the wait would have been decreased partially for many others. >>Now, if a CM gives unfair preference to the FP line, then that indeed is unfair. If the system works like it was designed, and if people come back when they're supposed to and not just sometime later in the day, then the system is fair.<< If Walt was still alive, I would be in my twenty first floor apartment looking at monorails buzzing by double decker Ferris Wheels. It's irrelevant. The system is not and WILL not be operated under ideal specifications. Human behavior and error need to be accounted for. After 13 years of operations, it is quite clear that this is how FP will operate, and that it will become MORE preferential in the future. So, I guess my response to your last comment Dan, is that the system will never work as it was originally designed. Because of this Truth, the system will always be flawed and unfair. It was sold originally under a different pretense, which is now antiquated.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But the fact that someone else was given a FP without waiting for it doesn't really bother me.<< It might not bother you, it doesn't really bother me, I expect it. However, it does pretty much invalidate the whole idea of equal access in one fell swoop. It pretty much answers the whole line of thought, "err, just get there in the morning." It's not so simple, as much as guilt-free FP users might want it to be. >>I'm still going to be able to see an attraction I want to see with a shorter wait than the standby line.<< Yes, but while I thought you got it yesterday, it obviously was only a moment of clarity, RT. You are getting a shorter wait off of a FIXED capacity, therefore you are making someone wait longer for your shorter wait. Add in to the mix, that some folk's shorter wait is predicated on free FP handouts or a FP prize, and they have now received an un-balanced advantage over the person who now has to make up the "price" = "wait time" with a longer standby queue. >>It is my choice whether or not I want to use it. If I would rather get in the standby line and see it now I still have that choice. In fact I can see it now and come back later and see it again using my Fastpass.<< Yes. Exactly. Thank you. Another great example of the whole dynamic. In the past you would not ride the attraction twice, with only one standby wait. You have now taken two supply (capacity) units with your demand for only the price of one wait. Again, higher demand than pre-FP. See?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Like if a stranger gives a FP they can't use to another person. That's not my problem nor is it Disney's.<< That's pretty much irrelevant. The FP ticket was pulled. Someone else using it, has the same effect. That does not factor into the whole philosophy if FP is fair. Also, the FP metrics originally and to this day (fine-tuned) take into account a certain % of unused FP tickets. The machines distribute accordingly.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Yes. Exactly. Thank you. Another great example of the whole dynamic. In the past you would not ride the attraction twice, with only one standby wait. You have now taken two supply (capacity) units with your demand for only the price of one wait. Again, higher demand than pre-FP. See?>> I saw that before... I don't doubt for a minute FP leads to greater demand. I just don't see it as a big fairness issue... it is certainly no more unfair than many other Disney practices.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Whew. 6 months ago after going through this I swore that I was going to create an online FAQ with all of these suppositions and my responses below each one. After the last 48 hrs. I am sure regretting that I didn't do it so I could just provide a link.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I just don't see it as a big fairness issue...<< It is not a fairness issue. That's my whole point. It is a clearly unfair system, so why engage in such an argument? Better to argue the merits in contrast to it being unfair. Do the merits outweigh an unfair line waiting system? What one person might consider unfair another would fair. So what is the point. Yesterday I tried to keep fairness out of the equation and simply focus on the increased standby queues. To me that is a much easier objective discussion to have. >> it is certainly no more unfair than many other Disney practices.<<<< I agree again, RT. And a lot of us point those out as well. This isn't Utopia, it is a business trying to extract as many $$$ out of pigeons, I mean guests, wallets as they can. With that will always come offers or opportunities from the business to customers that are unevenly distributed. The only time I go out of my way to bring up fairness, is when someone on here extols the virtues of FP, and I ask in response, "will you feel the same way when a deluxe guest gets priority over you" and the response back to me is, "well, when that happens, I will change my attitude" WHAT?! Talk about selective endorsements. What is with that!! It's only fair when one has the advantage. Got it.
Originally Posted By danyoung >It is a clearly unfair system, so why engage in such an argument?< This is the basis of the argument, and I don't see that we're going to resolve this. Each side has put up lots of factual and anecdotal evidence, and the other side has for the most part refused to acknowledge that the evidence has much weight. No one can say for a fact that the system is fair or unfair. And to be honest, I don't really care all that much. I've said that the system is fair in that anyone who wants to get one can get one. It's not limited by financial or social status - it's available to all who are willing to put in the very small effort that it takes to use the system. Are there problems with the system? Of course. Could Disney do a better job of enforcing the restrictions? Absolutely. But even with all that, I don't want the system abolished in any way. My park storming is greatly enhanced by the use of the system. I see attractions that I otherwise would skip, especially later in the day when the lines are huge. Call me heartless, but I simply don't care if others don't know how to get the best advantage. Most people don't know a fraction of what I know about the parks in general - where to park, what times to park storm, the best restaurants, etc. I'm happy to have earned all of that experience, and will continue to use it to my advantage.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Your points are well taken Dan. Obviously most is chalked up to personal preference. Other than: >>This is the basis of the argument,<< It's not the basis of the argument. The basis of the argument was that FP created longer standby waits than prior to FP. Over a four day discussion, fairness only creeped in last night. I factually believe the system is unfair based on the nature of the word 'fair', so, regardless, it doesn't matter, that was my point to RT. It is a silly variable to bring into the discussion because again, it isn't a crutch that is necessary to show FP is not a good thing for a Disney theme park.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Over a four day discussion, fairness only creeped in last night. I factually believe the system is unfair based on the nature of the word 'fair', so, regardless, it doesn't matter, that was my point to RT.>> HEY!! Don't dump the whole "fairness" thing in my lap! Fairness was first mentioned by those wacky witches... <<ORDDU: My sisters and I agree with you, sjhym333, duckling. The whole Fast Pass system pits guests against each other in a way they didn't have to deal with before this terrible system came to be. Those who arrive at the park in the morning have an obvious advantage of those who arrive at the park later in the day. This entire system forces guests to plan ahead in ways they never used to have to. It also wastes their time, while the guests to managed to get fast passes earlier in the day take unfair advantage of guests who didn't get their earlier. ORGOCH: Heck! Even if'n ev'ry dang guest got their at the same time in the mornin', there'd still be an unfair competition goin' on 'cause only so many fast passes can git out ta just so many folks befer they run out a the dang things! ORDDU: The Fast past system was an artificially created need by the Pressler era to make something look like it was a benefit for all guests when, in truth, it's a benefit only for SOME guests. Walt Disney wanted everyone to be treated like a V.I.P. I don't believe it was his plan to have guests competing in this way. Regardless of that, it is one of the worst ideas the company ever came up with.>> The "fairness" thing was then beaten to death by Kennesaw Tom in repeated posts... <<Yeah, that because of the FastPass system there are winners and losers. If you can use FastPass then your a "winner". But if for whatever reason you are unable to get a FastPass then your a "loser" and get to wait in crazy excessive lines. Just what I want to experience when I'm shelling out $100 a day per person while on vaction in extreme heat and humidity!>> All I did was come in at the tail end saying I didn't think it was unfair... at least not any more unfair than may other Disney practices!
Originally Posted By ChiMike Dan, also, not to be too rough, but you just said hours ago: >>Now, if a CM gives unfair preference to the FP line, then that indeed is unfair. If the system works like it was designed, and if people come back when they're supposed to and not just sometime later in the day, THEN THE SYSTEM IS FAIR.<< We know those conditions are not being met today, nor will they be tomorrow. You said earlier that they would have to be met for you to view the system as fair. However in post #250, you go back to saying: >> No one can say for a fact that the system is fair or unfair<< You just did, above, in post #240. And I agree, it is unfair since it is not meeting your own stated performance criteria. --- And again, I'll say, it is an irrelevant point to the current discussion, but I still want to keep you honest Dan!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >><<Over a four day discussion, fairness only creeped in last night. I factually believe the system is unfair based on the nature of the word 'fair', so, regardless, it doesn't matter, that was my point to RT.>> HEY!! Don't dump the whole "fairness" thing in my lap! Fairness was first mentioned by those wacky witches... << I certainly do not dump it on you. Your inclusion in the comment above was simply a reference to our posts this morning. Without question the fairness angle is unfortunately brought up. This time it wasn't either of us who invoked it. >>All I did was come in at the tail end saying I didn't think it was unfair... at least not any more unfair than may other Disney practices!<< And as stated 10 posts ago, I can't agree more.
Originally Posted By danyoung >It's not the basis of the argument.< You mean we can't even agree to the basis of the argument??? >You said earlier that they would have to be met for you to view the system as fair. However in post #250, you go back to saying....< You can't expect me to be consistent from post to post, can you? To clarify, I still think the system as designed is fair. There are ways to operate it as to make it unfair, such as when a CM gives undue preference to the FP line.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>You mean we can't even agree to the basis of the argument???<< Apparently not, however, I would suspect that after our twelfth pint at Rose & Crown you might be suggesting that I created Fastpass and thanking me for all the time you saved bypassing Maelstrom's standby. It's pretty simple. The statement was made that FP hasn't increased Standby waits. That statement, in my eyes, was disproved. Fairness came into the discussion in the 10th hour.
Originally Posted By danyoung > I would suspect that after our twelfth pint at Rose & Crown you might be suggesting that I created Fastpass and thanking me for all the time you saved bypassing Maelstrom's standby.< You drink the pints and I'll drink the vodka martinis, and we'll come to a fine agreement by the end of the night! >The statement was made that FP hasn't increased Standby waits. That statement, in my eyes, was disproved.< I tend to agree. I still feel that if the system was used as it was designed (meaning everyone comes back within their time window and CMs don't give undue preference to the FP line), then the standby waits would be exactly as they were. But as is, yeah, standby times are probably longer than they used to be.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<You drink the pints and I'll drink the vodka martinis, and we'll come to a fine agreement by the end of the night!>> I want in on this great time. Make mine a Gin Martini... Bombay Sapphire with a twist of lemon!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>meaning everyone comes back within their time window<< This doesn't happen. A FastPass should "expire" at the end of the allotted return time, but in practice, that means some poor CM gets to be "Bad Cop" and turn people away. Those guests would say they were shopping or dining or stuck in another attraction and the arguing would be tremendous. So I doubt there's any way to enforce the time window without creating a lot more turmoil. Regardless, there is a finite amount of guests that can be accommodated by any attraction on any given day. Personally, I'd like them to go back to letting people decide what's worth standing in line for, and what is not. But then, I'm not a person who likes to schedule out my vacation way in advance, preferring to be more spontaneous.
