Originally Posted By sjhym333 I also think FP is flawed. I have worked a FP attraction and can tell you for certainty that FP extends the Standby line wait. I have said this here several times. Soarin was without FP for 4 days several years back while the new machines were being installed. Longest wait time was 30 mins. Next day when the new system was up the wait was 60 mins plus. About the same number of guests in the park during the day. FP added that time to the Standby line. There are several variables that the system does not account for. The first is a CM who is unable to follow the prescribed OG on loading between the 2 lines or the CM who will hold back the Standby line even when there are no FP guests because they haven't reached the ratio required (I saw this last week at an attraction). The system does not account for situations like a large group of FP guests returning at the same time. I have had a manager tell me not to load any Standby guests while there is a FP line. Imagine how much fun it is to stand at the merge point, holding back Standby guests while allowing just FP guests in. Of course breakdowns just muck the whole thing up all together. I get the whole notion that FP is there for everyone to use, it's free, get there early, etc arguement. The early bird will always get the worm whether there is FP or not. But I would tell you from experience as a CM that you would see wait times drop if FP was taken away.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 Actually, there is a very scientific system in place for wait times. Whether the coordinator follows them is another story. I am sure many of you have seen or been given a red credit card looking thing on a string. That card is scanned at the entrance and scanned again when a guest hands it to a CM at load. It is very accurate. They are given out as often as every 5-10 mins on a busy day. A coordinator has a very good approximation of what the actual wait time is. Some will over estimate. So if the wait is averaging 45 mins they may post 55 mins to be safe. Bad wait times come from unforeseen circumstances or lazy coordinators. Personally I don't think there is any value in lying to a guest about a wait time. I will say that there are times during the early part of the day where lines build quickly. I have seen waits go from 30 mins to 60 mins in a matter of 10 mins. Not sure how to let the guest midway in the line that the wait time has gotten longer then they originally were told. If you want to prove this just stand outside Soarin, Test Track or even better Toy Story Mania in the morning and watch how quickly wait times grow.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> I am sure many of you have seen or been given a red credit card looking thing on a string. That card is scanned at the entrance and scanned again when a guest hands it to a CM at load. It is very accurate. They are given out as often as every 5-10 mins on a busy day. A coordinator has a very good approximation of what the actual wait time is. Some will over estimate. So if the wait is averaging 45 mins they may post 55 mins to be safe. Bad wait times come from unforeseen circumstances or lazy coordinators. << FLIK cards, right? There ought to be a better way to estimate wait times that doesn't rely on guests carrying those cards through the queue.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom << I can understand a margin of error of 5 or 10 minutes, but to have wait times overstated by up to half an hour, or worse understated by half an hour or more, is just pathetic.>> Valid point I forgot to mention. More often than not the Standby line wait times are over stated. I've been on BTMRR when the standby wait time is saying 40 minutes ( so no one is getting into the standby line) and the actual wait time in the standby line is more like 15-20 minutes.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I've found that for the most part wait times are pretty accurately represented. Of course I always go in the off-season, and I imagine they are easier to estimate then. I would think that wait times would be more predictable during busy periods if the Fastpass return window were actually enforced. If you don't want to put CM in the position of refusing a guest let a machine do it. How difficult would it be to print a bar-code on each Fastpass and then have the rider scan it as they enter the Fastpass return line. If the window is not correct the gate does not open. End of story.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom << I have seen waits go from 30 mins to 60 mins in a matter of 10 mins.>> You mean like when a parade or show gets over? Been there done that! Was in the standby line on Toy Story and participated in the wait going from 45 minutes to 2 hours in a matter of minutes when a show/ parade got over and the FastPass line got slammed! As least I was in an air conditioned queue line. And all I have to say is that the "talking" Mr Potato head sucks after having to listen to him for 2 hours.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub The arguments for and against FP theory don't mean anything . This week at DL !!!Sorry but Thursday morn HM Down Splash Down Big Thunder Down and Pirates Down for refurb that also means the FP are down and this was all down at the same time... Major problems with many attractions all week long in both parks! Also their Thursday Early Magic Morn was so unbelievably packed immediately in Fantasyland. If they have new next gen technology to improve this mess they are offering BRING IT ON...cause things are not working according to plan.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Sorry I realize the discussion is about WDW but they both need major overhauls and improvements to match the abuse the overcrowding is causing for all theme parks.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>What is disturbing Doug is when the "standby-line" is not the line. The FastPass line is the line.<< This statement makes no sense. >>For decades the WDW parks did fine without a FastPass system.<< I would say this depends on the definition of "fine." I recall WDW parks pre-FP, and "fine" wasn't the way I would describe them. >>It was totally fair. You got in line and you waited your turn. Everyone was quarenteed equal opportunity to enjoy the rides/ attractions.<< Everyone is still guaranteed an equal opportunity to enjoy rides and attractions. >>Now under the FastPass system if you don't have a FastPass then your going to have to wait, no ifs ands or buts about it!<< And if you DO have a FastPass, you're going to have to wait. The difference is, some will wait in line and some will wait elsewhere. >> The best way to describe the standby lines at WDW is that they use to be "the line", the norm, now if your in the Standby line your in a holding pattern waiting for you chance while others go first.<< Guests with PastPasses don't "go first." They enter whenever their time is up, the same as if they were standing and waiting in a line. >>It leaves a bad impression when you show up to DAK and have to wait hours in the standby line for Kilimanjaro simply because when you got to DAK there were no FastPasses available for Kilimanjaro.<< "Impressions" are not factual assessments of a situation. Impressions are largely based on an emotional response. >>So, guests get angry. And think twice about further Disney Park vacations.<< And yet, WDW parks continue to draw the greatest number of guests of any theme parks in the world. >>Not everyone knows how to use FastPass and FastPass machines break... often you have one family member collecting fastpass tickets for an entire family. Or you have a child trying to get a FastPass and they have no idea what they are doing... The FastPass system is flawed.<< And once again, the above does not describe flaws in the system, but the vagaries of human nature. If a child walks into the bathroom and proceeds to urinate on the floor and drop towel litter in the sinks, would you describe the bathroom as flawed? If one person in line at the service window of a restaurant is ordering for their entire family, is that food outlet doing a bad job? The wrong thing? Every time an attraction goes 101 (breaks down), does this mean there is something inherently wrong with the attraction? Is it flawed? Not at all. And the examples cited do not support the idea that FP is either flawed or unfair.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>I believe the FastPass system is flawed and I will explain my reasoning. I am not going to place any blame on any castmembers...<< Too late. That's already been done, repeatedly. >>It use to be everyone was in the same line. All FastPass is about is "bumping" someone else so your in line next.<< Not at all. No one is "bumped." Some are waiting in line, and some are waiting elsewhere. >>So, I don't by the "Disney just wants to get people out of being in lines".<< Frankly, it doesn't matter whether one buys the argument or not. It's the reason the FP system was created. It gets people out of the line, and into shops, restaurants, and less crowded venues. The same number of people still wait for attractions, it's just the case that many of them are now out in the park. >>...no matter how you look at it someone is going to be in line often for an hour or greater.<< This has always been the case with popular attractions. I have seen wait times that are hours long, before FP and after. We all have. >>With FastPass there is always winners and losers. I'm not so sure it is in a parks best intrest to devise a system that intrinsically has winners and losers. Bad Show!<< This is a purely emotional argument. The idea of "winners" and "losers" has nothing to do with the reality of the FP system. >>Sure have single rider lines, not a big deal.<< Not according to the premise that there are "winners" and "losers." Single guests are the winners; folks "stuck in line" with family and friends are losers. See how that works? (But only on an emotional level?) >>But your basic standby line taking over and hour because guests with FastPass are always given presidence, that's crazy!<< It would be crazy, IF IT WERE TRUE. But guests with FastPass are not given precedent over other guests. They have to wait their turn, along with everyone else. >>So I guess most guests are content with the FastPass system, winning on some lines ( by utilizing FastPass ) and losing on others when they have to use the plain old standby line.<< Again, this is an emotional view of the situation. >>I have yet to witness someone complaining about the lines in Nemo, Pirates, Its A Small World, Haunted Mansion or Spaceship Earth.<< I would imagine there have been complaints about nearly everything dealing with lines and wait times at WDW. But many attractions do not garner that much, by simple virtue of the fact that they don't regularly have long wait times. >>But I have seen lots of people complaining about the excessive wait time in the Standby lines for Kilimanjaro, Toy Story, Soarin, The Great Movie Ride, EE, Kali, BTMRR just to name a few.<< And the complaints were just as prevalent (or possibly worse) before FP. >>When you add into the equation that some rides notoriously are run at half capacity; The Great Movie Ride, Universe of Energy, often times BTMRR. The situation becomes WORSE!!!<< And again, running an attraction at lower capacity has NOTHING to do with the FP system. >>You can also make the arguement that many of those people entering a queue for Kilimajaro, etc.... knowing there is going to be a two hour wait, would catch a show and then come back to Kilimajaro at a later times when the queue lines are not so lengthy.<< This would be true with or without FastPass. >>Under the FastPass system getting into a standby line on rides like TestTrack and Kilimajaro is a crap shot at best... There have been times when I have gotten into Standby lines with the queue saying 30 minutes and then standing in line for a good 90 minutes or more. The queue signs are not always a reliable gauge for actual queue line duration.<< It has been my experience that posted wait times are remarkably accurate in Disney parks. If anything, posted times tend to overstate the wait time. >>Again my argument: FastPass is a flawed system.<< Again, I don't see that this argument is supported by facts.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper If you worked a fastpass attraction, you'd see how flawed the system really is.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The system or the implementation? The only problem I see is that the return window is not enforced.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<The arguments for and against FP theory don't mean anything.>> My argument is that in my opinion FastPass is a flawed system. I am NOT arguing for or against FastPass. Draw your own conclusions! <<This week at DL !!!Sorry but Thursday morn HM Down Splash Down Big Thunder Down and Pirates Down for refurb that also means the FP are down and this was all down at the same time... Major problems with many attractions all week long in both parks!>> WDW and DLR are totally different animals. What may work in one resort doesn't mean it will work in the other. As it is... I'm willing to let my argument stand. In my opinion FastPass is a flawed system.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^^Both. The time window thing is probably one of the biggest problems. But Disney has also upped the number of fastpasses distributed across the board due to the complaints about not being able to obtain them, which is another implementation mistake. And then, it just was not thought out well when it was designed. It's used in rides it has no business being on, it doesn't do what it was intended to do, and it creates much more guest problems than it solves. Listen, I'm a fastpass Jedi Master. But for normal guests it is a terrible system that you may master by the last day of your trip. And it creates grumpy, and sometimes downright angry people in the stand-bye lines. It's not complicated when you figure it out, but to a first timer (which is the majority of WDW's guests) it's just something else that can overwhelm you at an already overwhelming place. The system inflates wait times to a ridiculous degree. Were there long lines back in the day? Of course there were. Imagining anything different would be delusional. But you would not see 2 hour lines for Soarin' and Test Track without Fastpass.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Sorry I realize the discussion is about WDW but they both need major overhauls and improvements to match the abuse the overcrowding is causing for all theme parks.>> To the MK management teams credit they have done and continue to do this. The revamped the loading areas for Pirates and IASW. There are plans in the works to expand the loading queue for Peter Pan and apparently have a network of queue lines for the Little Mermaid Ride in anticipation for long standby lines there.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom ((>>I believe the FastPass system is flawed and I will explain my reasoning. I am not going to place any blame on any castmembers...<< Too late. That's already been done, repeatedly.)) Not by me! ((>>It use to be everyone was in the same line. All FastPass is about is "bumping" someone else so your in line next.<< Not at all. No one is "bumped." Some are waiting in line, and some are waiting elsewhere.)) So then you agree that with FastPass there is always going to be winners and losers. If you choose NOT to use FastPass, or if there are no FastPass tickets available because the machine broke, or out of tickets then you are always losing. ((>>With FastPass there is always winners and losers. I'm not so sure it is in a parks best intrest to devise a system that intrinsically has winners and losers. Bad Show!<< This is a purely emotional argument. The idea of "winners" and "losers" has nothing to do with the reality of the FP system.)) If you are spending $100 a day per person to enter the MK and because you are consistently in the standby line because you either choose not to use the FastPass system or if a machine broke or out of tickets and you only get to experience 3-4 rides and attractions in a given day. At that rate it would take you a week to experience the MK park. I would call that losing. But, I guess that is left to personal interpretation. Apparently some people enjoy spending the majority of their vacation time in Disney park queues. There is obviously a huge problem with wait lines for rides/ attractions at WDW otherwise we wouldn't have a need for Extra Magic hours and the special add on shows; MNSSHP, MVMCP wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are. Unless you believe guests are more than happy to shell out $59 per person to watch a parade and fireworks display for a few brief hours. << (But only on an emotional level?)>> People tend to get very emotional when they are waiting in excessive lines for what they preceive to be no good reason in the Orlando heat, humidity. And especially when they are paying $100 a day per person to visit a WDW Disney Park. <<But many attractions do not garner that much, by simple virtue of the fact that they don't regularly have long wait times.>> Virtually EVERY ride in Fantasyland has excessive wait times with perhaps one exception, IASW. There is an example of one "land" that is a total wait time disaster.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom << I'm a fastpass Jedi Master. But for normal guests it is a terrible system that you may master by the last day of your trip. And it creates grumpy, and sometimes downright angry people in the stand-bye lines. It's not complicated when you figure it out, but to a first timer (which is the majority of WDW's guests) it's just something else that can overwhelm you at an already overwhelming place.>> From your mouth to God's ears!
Originally Posted By danyoung >And the examples cited do not support the idea that FP is either flawed or unfair.< Thanks for you well thought out posts, Dug. I had the same thoughts as you as I read the quoted posts, but I just didn't have the energy to go blow by blow. >But for normal guests it is a terrible system that you may master by the last day of your trip.< You guys keep overestimating how difficult the FP system is to understand and use. It's really not, and it's well documented both in guide books, online and in the parks how to use it. And even if someone didn't understand it at first, you could just as easily say that a guest would be totally thrilled as he learned how to use FP and discovered the benefits of not having to stand in a longer, slower line. I've said it before - I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the person who just gets in a line and waits for an hour when he didn't have to, just because he's not willing to use a few brain cells to understand a relatively simple system.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<You guys keep overestimating how difficult the FP system is to understand and use. It's really not, and it's well documented both in guide books, online and in the parks how to use it. And even if someone didn't understand it at first, you could just as easily say that a guest would be totally thrilled as he learned how to use FP and discovered the benefits of not having to stand in a longer, slower line.>> I worked a fastpass attraction. I'd say a good 75% of the guests don't understand it on any given day, and it creates a headache for them. I don't think it's a difficult to understand system. But for the vast majority of new guests(which is the vast majority of WDW guests), it is. I saw it every day when I worked there. People just didn't get it. And it creates a lot of guest frustration. <<I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the person who just gets in a line and waits for an hour when he didn't have to, just because he's not willing to use a few brain cells to understand a relatively simple system.>> I do. WDW isn't an easy thing to do when you're a first time guest. It really isn't. Especially in this day and age with the crowds the place gets. Dealing with eating, travel, kids, etc, learning the fastpass system is something people can easily get frustrated with because of the stress of travel.
