Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Your only winning if you use the FastPass system. If you choose not to use it, the machines break or run out of passes. Then you will absolutely positively be waiting in excessive lines. And as I pointed out virtually EVERY ride in Fantasyland at the MK has excessively long waits. That "land" is a wait time disaster!
Originally Posted By danyoung >If you choose not to use it, the machines break or run out of passes.< Tom, your arguments have made sense, even if I don't always agree with them. But this one defies logic. If people choose not to use FP, then the machines breaking or running out would have no impact on them.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>So then you agree that with FastPass there is always going to be winners and losers.<< No, not at all. It isn't a winning and losing proposition. It's simply a system that allows guests to wait for an attraction out of the line. >>...as I pointed out virtually EVERY ride in Fantasyland at the MK has excessively long waits. That "land" is a wait time disaster!<< Yes. It is the case that FP won't work for attractions with low capacity. And attractions with low capacity have always had long, frustrating lines. FastPass doesn't create capacity, and it doesn't take away capacity. It simply allows guests to wait for their allotted time for popular attractions without spending all their time in a line.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I also believe Fastpass is easy to understand and use. My use of it is very limited... I find even at WDW I only need it for a few attractions. MK Pooh and Peter Pan... the two FL attractions with excessive waits. The only other attraction queue that typically exceeds 30 minutes is Space Mountain and I LIKE that... heck... I'd PAY to stand in an air-conditioned queue at the MK! DHS Rock and Roller and Midway Mania. Tower of Terror rarely exceeds 20 minutes since Mania opened. AK None. I actually ENJOY the Kilimanjaro queue and always use single-rider on EE. No other attraction at the AK needs one. Epcot Soarin' and Test Track... again, no other attraction needs one. I rarely spend more than 8 hours in a park anymore... my feet and back give out by then. I don't ever have a problem riding everything I want during that time. Sure, I don't go in July. But anyone choosing to go in July has far more serious issues than Fastpass or anything else could possible hope to solve!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Tom, your arguments have made sense, even if I don't always agree with them. But this one defies logic. If people choose not to use FP, then the machines breaking or running out would have no impact on them.>> Darn, I thought I used a comma in that sentence! < If you choose not to use it, the machines break or run out of passes.> Wait! Yup, there it is!
Originally Posted By DlandDug Well, this is comical. I understand that this is a list of three separate items: 1. If you choose not to use it [FastPass]. 2. The machines break. 3. [The machines] run out of tickets. But it could also be read as cause and effect: Cause: If you choose not to use it [FastPass]... Effect: ...the machines break or run out of tickets. (This is admittedly baffling.) In context of the conversation, I understood it to be a list, though. Any other reading doesn't really make sense. But then, it is early.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: My sisters and I agree with you, sjhym333, duckling. The whole Fast Pass system pits guests against each other in a way they didn't have to deal with before this terrible system came to be. Those who arrive at the park in the morning have an obvious advantage of those who arrive at the park later in the day. This entire system forces guests to plan ahead in ways they never used to have to. It also wastes their time, while the guests to managed to get fast passes earlier in the day take unfair advantage of guests who didn't get their earlier. ORGOCH: Heck! Even if'n ev'ry dang guest got their at the same time in the mornin', there'd still be an unfair competition goin' on 'cause only so many fast passes can git out ta just so many folks befer they run out a the dang things! ORDDU: The Fast past system was an artificially created need by the Pressler era to make something look like it was a benefit for all guests when, in truth, it's a benefit only for SOME guests. Walt Disney wanted everyone to be treated like a V.I.P. I don't believe it was his plan to have guests competing in this way. Regardless of that, it is one of the worst ideas the company ever came up with.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It also wastes their time, while the guests to managed to get fast passes earlier in the day take unfair advantage of guests who didn't get their earlier.>> OH COME ON!! I like sleeping in as much as anyone. I rarely make it through a theme park gate before 11 AM. But I'm the first to realize that I have no one to blame but myself for not getting my butt out of bed earlier in the morning if I arrive at Epcot too late for a Soarin' Fastpass. Well, I could blame Alan the bartender at the Belle Vue Room in the Boardwalk for my sleeping late, but I can't say he's ever FORCED that last drink down my gullet.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Thanks for you well thought out posts, Dug. I had the same thoughts as you as I read the quoted posts, but I just didn't have the energy to go blow by blow.< why I've stayed out of it-- we've all been down this path 50 times before. There are two sides to the issue - and itis different for DL than WDW due to makeup of visitors. The fact that most visitors to WDW are once a year visitors at most and many complaints come from frequent visitors who among other things can't sleep in and get a FP at Noon for something- but had an equal chance when the park opened. The implementation of the system is not enforced which creates more issues than needed ( return times need to have a drop dead return time) - but the system works for many as well- and even first time visitors figure it out... no system is perfect - and for people like me who only got to over 25 years in summer because of the kids being in school- some of the selective memories on wait times surprise me. off season ( when that truly existed) maybe- but summer was brutal for many of the most popular rides. flawed ? what isn't unfair ? sorry, never bought this argument Needs to be administered better/differently ?- you bet Limit the attractions with FP ? sure now we can start on refillable mugs
Originally Posted By danyoung >In context of the conversation, I understood it to be a list, though. Any other reading doesn't really make sense.< Yeah, after reading it again it made sense. Sorry bout that, Tom. >But I'm the first to realize that I have no one to blame but myself for not getting my butt out of bed earlier in the morning if I arrive at Epcot too late for a Soarin' Fastpass.< And this is another point I've made repeatedly - that without FP, if you arrived at noon you'd find a prohibitively long line at attractions like Soarin'. With FP at least I have a chance to ride without a long wait. Since its implementation I don't think I've ever waited longer than 20 to 30 minutes for any attraction. And that's what FP is all about. If my benefit is at the expense of those who either won't learn about the program or for whatever reason choose not to participate, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Selfish? Sorta. But I'm not doing anything that's not available to every single person who comes through the turnstiles. If their bad choices benefit me, bad on them.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 You REALLY do need to work a FP attraction to understand how bad the system is and how confused the average guest is. Congrats to those of you who understand it. Just last week I saw a guest get a FP walk up to the FP return person and wanted to board the attraction immediately. The CM patiently explained it to the guest who seemed pretty clueless to the concept. They became pretty angry. What do you say? "You know, if you had done some research idiot you would understand the system better!?" I can tell you from experience this is not unusual. If I had a $1 for every guest that I had to explain the system to on a daily basis I could retire. Not to mention the dad's who get up early, run from their hotel to the FP machine to grab FP's for their sleeping family only to learn that their family needs to be in the park for the ticket to work. Or the family who ran to Test Track then Soarin to get FP's for both. Or the folks who grab a FP for an attraction with no line who finds out they now have to wait 2 hours to get another? Or the guest who has dinner reservations at Cali Grill that night and it is 11am and the FP return time is 6pm? Everyone talks about enforcing the return time. But I expect most of you don't follow the return time since you know you don't have to. What do you say to the guest was got stuck at a restaurant with a slow server or kitchen who has missed their return time? The problem with this discussion is that you only have your experience to go by. Those of us who work FP attractions see hundreds of guests in a day. Each one is different. Each one has a different story. Each one needs to be treated the same way you would want to be treated. It is easy to be an arm chair FP expert. Spend one day in the trenches at a FP attraction and I expect many of you would have a different opinion. I reiterate, Soarin without FP would average a 30 min wait most days instead of the 60-90 min it currently has. I was there and I saw it. Every mgr saw it and agreed. Disney is afraid to lose FP because of guest complaints. I have a very very very close friend who is in charge of FP throughout the parks and even he says that it is a terrible system. Most CM's hate it. People come down on vacation and use the system for a couple of days a couple of times a year and think they understand it all. I would argue that you really need to be in the midst of it daily to understand how terrible a system it is.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub i guess we can discuss this endlessly. I also am a FP pro I go to WDW and DL by myself all the time. Almost monthly. I just experienced WDW with family members in May and August and DL this past week. FP works okay if everything else is working. But when things start to crash as in Screamin on a Friday afternoon and then when it re-opens and everybody knows the ride closes completely for the rest of the night with WOC and they have to use that FP or else ; making the FP line longer than the standby line now...Hey we have a problem. I also will add that a lot of their resort guests were upset with everything sitting around the fireplace at the GRAND. Angry guests fed up with the crowding and the breakdowns of attractions and the FP system repeatedly last week. Also lots of comments about the dirty appearance of the parks! I hated the announcement of the next Gen technology but after last week I am willing to hope and pray for an improvement. I just have very little faith in it but I am ready so bring it on . And let me sample it first!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Everyone talks about enforcing the return time. But I expect most of you don't follow the return time since you know you don't have to.>> I ALWAYS follow the return time. I try to follow ALL rules. I don't try to re-use refillable mugs. I don't take shells off the beach at Castaway Cay because Disney asks me not to. That's just the way I am. I can't tell you the number of Fastpasses I've thrown away because dinner ran late or I didn't get back to that area of the park as quickly as I thought I would. But SURELY I'd expect to use one if I was just 5 minutes late, right? No. I wouldn't. I know the rules when I get it. That Fastpass doesn't guarantee me a darn thing except being allowed to get in line when it tells me I can… it DOES NOT guarantee me a ride on that attraction at my convenience. It irritates me a little knowing that many others don't follow the rules, but then I have no control over that. All I can do is follow the rules myself and I always do. Thinking like yours is part of the problem...
Originally Posted By sjhym333 Not my thinking. I very very rarely use FP. But as someone who has stood at the FP return entrance I can tell you that you are the exception not the norm.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 And if your comment about being part of the problem was aimed at me...then you are rude.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I didn't mean to be rude to you personally, but yes... the lack of enforcement of the return window IS a major part of the problem with Fastpass when it comes to unpredictability of the standby line. And any guest who ignores that window and any CM who permits it IS part of the problem in my opinion. Now I realize that since Disney was foolish enough to NOT enforce the rule before there is no reasonable way to do it now... people aren't following what Disney SAYS, they are following what it DOES. Which is why I like the idea of using bar code readers and electronic gates at FP return lines. Take it out of the hands of CM's and guests will have an easier time accepting the new enforcement and will come to expect it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip By the way... I don't think guests are as stupid as you think when it comes to using Fastpass. They are feigning ignorance in an attempt to game the system. Kind of like the folks from Brazilian Tour Groups who all of a sudden can't speak English when they are called on line-jumping.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<any CM who permits it IS part of the problem in my opinion.>> Don't blame a CM for following the rules.
