Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom The more concerning thing here is how guests subjugate themselves to the FastPass system to the point that the single determining factor as to "when" a guest actually gets to experience a ride or attraction in a Disney park is dependent on a machine spitting out a piece of paper and NOT the guest or Disney! So if it is 10 AM and you get a FastPass and the machine spits out a piece of paper that says 8 PM that night, then guests willfully customize that days park visit accordingly. Crazy! Again, I think the FastPass system is flawed!
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<No offense intended to the few people on LP that love the FP because it always works for them. Consider that most of you make it work because you are visiting all by yourself so it is very easy to focus on the return window to get the next FP and easy to walk thru the crowds>> I've been to the parks about three times since FP has been implemented. Once with only adults, the other two with kids in tow. And all three times we managed to handle the FP just fine.
Originally Posted By ChiMike The problem with your solution RT, practically speaking, is that there will be no definitive point to draw the line, so to speak. It will be grey area of when a real delay will be reasonable, which will then fall back into a CMs lap to make the call and believe whatever excuse is given. It's a no-win situation when trying to pretend that FP accommodates guests. I agree with you, if it was up to me, the window would be strictly enforced with absolutely no restrictions. If guests are really waiting in a virtual line (which they aren't!), then they should show up right at the beginning of the return window. They then have a whole hour padding in case of an emergency, anything after an hour and their spot in the virtual line is forfeited. I mean, I can't go to load on Space Mountain, virtually or in the flesh, and just sit there for another 120 minutes looking at the CMs and saying "Wait for it... Wait ... Wait .... " Just another example, in a long line of examples, of why this system is garbage. All the excuses and rationalizations are enough reason to know the program is simply not worth it for the guests. Only worth it for Disney's hopeful manipulation via NEXTGEN.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom In my opinion FastPass = rationing of time. The single best way to decrease wait time for rides and attractions is to have MORE rides and attractions. As you take rides away, seasonally close others, rehab rides to the point no one wants to enjoy them, have parks with very few rides or attractions in them, then not surprisingly the wait times on the ones left "soar". To me it is a no brainer. If you want to "fix" FastPass bring in more rides and attraction. The problem isn't the rides. The problem is that lack of rides.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom It also seems to me RT that your argument supports FastPass. Basically your argument is that FastPasser are showing up later in the day. It would seem logical then that this should NOT impact the "wait" time for a ride/ attraction immediately. It would affect wait times later in the day. This doesn't explain the 2 hour wait times from park opening for Soarin or Toy Story. Obviously Disney is throwing out there much more FastPasses than needs to be circulating. Only the over abundance of FastPasses can explain the 2 hour standby wait times upon park opening on certain rides! And again, I think the solution is having MORE rides and attractions.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 I just don't understand the consternation over something that is opitional.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<As you take rides away, seasonally close others, rehab rides to the point no one wants to enjoy them, have parks with very few rides or attractions in them, then not surprisingly the wait times on the ones left "soar".>> I forgot to mention notoriously run ride and attraction as half capacity.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It probably has to do with the time of year that I go, but I've never experienced excessive standby waits in the morning... the only time I've had problems is later in the day when the outstanding past-due Fastpasses have really started to accumulate. Even then, I've never waited standby for Soarin' or Midway Mania more than 45 minutes. Friends don't let friends go to WDW in July!!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<I just don't understand the consternation over something that is opitional.>> I would think after 147 posts it would be rather obvious DDMAN26. FastPass doesn't do what it was intended to do (decrease ride/ attraction wait times. It artificially creates excessive standby wait times. Guests subjugate themselves to a machine spitting out a piece of paper which dictates their daily Disney park experience. It doesn't make up for the lack of rides, or ride/ attractions that are closed, seasonally closed or intentionally run at half capacity. It incites undesirable emotional responces on an already bewildered guest audience. It is a flawed system!
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<I just don't understand the consternation over something that is opitional.>> Saying Fastpass is optional in the current age of Disney World is laughable. Sure you can choose not to get a fasptass. But if you choose not to participate, you'll get to do about half of the attractions in parks like MK and Epcot, and you'd waste a quarter of your day waiting in ling for Toy Story Mania. No, Fastpass is far from optional if you want to get all the big rides done in a day and still have time to smell the roses.
Originally Posted By u k fan I think the trick to enforcing FP return times would be to make the windows bigger. Getting caught in another attraction or at a restaurant would matter less if the return window was 30 or even 60 minutes. If you can't make it back to an attraction for an hour long return window then something in your day has gone seriously wrong. There would most likely be FP attendance peaks at the start of the hour, but anyone in the know (and anyone who attempts a WDW vacation without doing some research is nuts IMHO) would know that getting in line just as the hour ticks over is not a good idea!!!
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub If everybody only considers FP in their own selfish/pleasurable needs this conversation will forever be frustrating. DDMan can I have the fine print version? 2 kids in tow...just fine...what were their ages,how long has it been since you have been to DL or WDW;? The FP system used to work and still can work if all others things are operating as they should. FP was beyond BAD last week: Imagine Thursday Morning and HM down Splash down Big Thunder Down Pirates in refurb down Making all FP machines Down the next day splash FP Down Buzz AstroBlasters Down Go over to DCA Screamin down Later in the afternoon when in re-opened the FP line was as long as the standby because everybody with a FP knew they had to use it because Screamin goes down approx 8p.m. for the rest of the night due to WOC. Also factor in the entire State of Utah was vacationing on Thursday morn the Magic Morn in Fantasyland was immediately mobbed as in Full and Miserable. Disney knows that their THursdays are now as packed as the weekends I guess because the locals are shut out on the weekends? Also factor in the crush of people told to exit DL because of the Halloween parties and the construction at DCA . DL and DCA were not fun and not operating according to an expensive family vacation for anybody. Not just me! Also can not believe everybody thinks FP is fair and equal when I know castmembers abuse the system and the little tour guides can get as many as they want and need! I hope Disney charges for their new next gen technology and makes them available only to resort guests.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub p.s. I know that will start a huge discussion But since the locals have a huge advantage over the once a year visitor again it is time for Disney to give the advantage to their resort guests. Disney it is time to repair this system unless you no longer want Family vacations and just want to cater to locals. Good luck filling those $300and plus rooms.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^^I agree. The Universal system is preferable to Disney's. With that being said, the system would still need to be tweaked. Universal offers unlimited Express Pass to its resort guests, and that just wouldn't work for Disney. They have too many guests in their resorts, and giving them unlimited times through the fasptass queue would create a new set of problems.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip But wouldn't you wait in line just as long without Fastpass? Fastpass does not change an attraction's capacity... it is what it is. The only difference is you now have two lines instead of one... but you are still putting the same number of people through the attraction each day. I agree that the PERCEIVED wait time has probably increased. Moving ahead continuously in a line seems faster than moving ahead in spurts which is what happens with Fastpass. There is also the "time-shifting" problem cause by the return window being ignored. But overall they are still putting the same number of people through the attraction each day as they used to unless they have reduced capacity by taking vehicles off-line which is not really a Fastpass issue. MK attendance has also increased by almost 25% over the past 10 years, which would also contribute to increased waits whether Fastpass was around or not. I can still do 12-13 attractions a day at the MK during an 8-hour period... about the same as I always did. I really don't see that big a change. (Unless you are talking about Easter week or the day after Thanksgiving, when after wandering the park for an hour or two I give up and go somewhere else. But it's been that way forever.)
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>This doesn't explain the 2 hour wait times from park opening for Soarin or Toy Story. Obviously Disney is throwing out there much more FastPasses than needs to be circulating. Only the over abundance of FastPasses can explain the 2 hour standby wait times upon park opening on certain rides!<< Absolutely. The return window issue is only one of the glaring issues with how the system is now run by leadership at WDP&R. The other is that, again to appease complaining guests, more tickets are handed out than there should be. So during your parade/show analogy, even if the wait time is enforced, there are way too many tickets valid for 3:30p floating out there. >>and again, I think the solution is having MORE rides and attractions.<< Of course. FP is a ponzi scheme, the only true way of beefing up capacity is through additional offerings, the only true way of being "E"fficent with queues is to have smart groupers and single rider lines.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I just don't understand the consternation over something that is opitional.<< It's not optional! Optional would suggest that I can chose not to use FPO and I would be unaffected by its presence in the park. Like some would say of a certain optional interactive queue. I either use FPO when I don't want to, or I wait in historically longer lines than I use to have to endure for the same exact attraction. Not optional for a guest of my persuasion.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I think the trick to enforcing FP return times would be to make the windows bigger. Getting caught in another attraction or at a restaurant would matter less if the return window was 30 or even 60 minutes.<< The problem, is that based on the original metrics of the system, if they were to extend the return time out for more than an hour, they would be required to distribute even less tickets per hour than the system was originally designed to distribute. So, looking at today where they distribute MORE tickets than the system was originally designed to distribute, this would be an absolute disaster. Ironic, since right now they do NOT enforce the return time window AND they distribute MORE tickets than they should in some hours of the day. A perfect storm of a disaster. >>If you can't make it back to an attraction for an hour long return window then something in your day has gone seriously wrong.<< Exactly. If we are to really believe this a 'virtual queue' (which is hogwash), then if you needed to catch a bus back to your resort real quick, you have 'virtually' stepped out of the 'virtual queue'. Your ticket should be invalid, life moves on, get a new one. >>There would most likely be FP attendance peaks at the start of the hour, but anyone in the know (and anyone who attempts a WDW vacation without doing some research is nuts IMHO) would know that getting in line just as the hour ticks over is not a good idea!!!<< That already happens.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But wouldn't you wait in line just as long without Fastpass?<< No. Capacity is theoretically fixed at any given moment. Supply is constant, Demand is lowered, Wait time goes down. >>Fastpass does not change an attraction's capacity... it is what it is.<< Good, you're there already. >>The only difference is you now have two lines instead of one... but you are still putting the same number of people through the attraction each day.<< Right as far as theoretical capacity for that day goes with the flux of new ride vehicles sometimes going on and offline. However, two lines instead of one is NOT the only difference. Demand is higher with FP, because more people are spurred to visit the attraction with the promise of low waits via FP. >>I agree that the PERCEIVED wait time has probably increased. Moving ahead continuously in a line seems faster than moving ahead in spurts which is what happens with Fastpass.<< It is more than PERCEIVED, it is real. Because of fixed capacity, i.e. fixed supply, there is a rise in price. Price=Wait Time. Wait times for standby increase because there are more riders in the past who are trying to board the attraction via FP. Where in the past someone wouldn't wait 30 mins for the ride, they will now if they get a FP for a 5 minute wait. This causes the current standby to be even greater than what in the past would only be 30 mins. SJHYM gave a perfect example with Soarin. >>There is also the "time-shifting" problem cause by the return window being ignored.<< That happened and can happen in the future even with the return window enforced. >>But overall they are still putting the same number of people through the attraction each day as they used to unless they have reduced capacity by taking vehicles off-line which is not really a Fastpass issue.<< Agreed. The trap that most people fall into, and it is certainly not their fault, most guests aren't expected to have the faintest clue about operations and FP, is they look at the capacity=supply side of the equation. It is a constant variable at any given point in the day. It is pretty much irrelevant. This issue is on the demand side of the equation. For some reason a lot of smart people on the internet can't grasp the logic of it all. Some ignore it outright because of the sense of entitlement FP has inflicted on the entire guest population. >>MK attendance has also increased by almost 25% over the past 10 years, which would also contribute to increased waits whether Fastpass was around or not.<< That could be argued. No doubt. However, there are also other variables that come into play. Park Hopping on a rise, formal dining on a rise, meet and greets on a rise. I rather look at specific attractions and compare to when FP isn't run. The results are pretty clear. >>I can still do 12-13 attractions a day at the MK during an 8-hour period... about the same as I always did. I really don't see that big a change.<< My suggestion is that boils down more to the way you visit after all of these years, especially if it is in the off season. (Unless you are talking about Easter week or the day after Thanksgiving, when after wandering the park for an hour or two I give up and go somewhere else. But it's been that way forever.)
