Originally Posted By Fe Maiden << <<River Country - I think most people who've tried them all would prefer the present water parks to River Country.>> Disagree. I'd also state that many would say that RC attracted a different clientele than TL and BB once they opened because it was a simpler, quieter place. It was unique. TL and BB are great parks, but they aren't unique like RC was. And because RC attracted a largely different audience once Disney opened its mega water parks, one might argue that Disney turned its back on those people.>> I totally disagree with Spirit on RC. I absolutely loved River Country as a kid, but it's nowhere near as good as TL or BB in almost every aspect. I'd say BB and TL are every bit as unique as RC. Most water parks are concrete and fiberglass and not much else. TL and BB have detailed theming and a back story just like RC had. River Country simple and quiet? Maybe in January but in June, July, and August when I was there the place was packed. The pool was crowded, the line for the tubes was endless, and the lake area with the ropes and swings was always mobbed. It was a lot of fun, some of my favorite memories of WDW in the 70's and 80's, but not as simple and quiet as we'd like to remember. I was in WDW last week and we spent a day at BB and the thing that struck me was how many quiet areas there are. Most people try to nab spots in the front of the park where the pool is or the kiddie area, but if you make your way around the sides and towards the back there are a lot of shaded pavilions that are empty. You could spend a nice quiet day in the shade reading a book, hop in the lazy river a few times, and leave feeling totally relaxed. With 3 kids in tow it's not what I did, but you certainly could if you wanted to. And one of the things I love most about BB is leaving BB. My wife and I grab a coffee and get a dozen of those fresh made donuts that are still warm in the bag for us and the kids to pass around driving back to the WL. I couldn't have them every day or every week for that matter, but a wonderful little splurge to have on vacation. And easily justified if you hike up to Summit Plummet rather than take the ski lift.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<River Country - I think most people who've tried them all would prefer the present water parks to River Country. Discovery Island - doesn't even start to compare with Animal Kingdom (which is why they closed Discovery Island).>> Agreed! <<Imagination and World of Motion - Without getting into a debate over which is "better", a film made today showing a clip of Test Track would look just as interesting as the clip of WoM. You've got me though on Imagination.>> As much as I like Test Track.... I still preferred WoM. But those days are not coming back. <<Lack of buses - that is true though you could certainly make a promotional video today without ever showing them. I think that is exactly the case on the videos they currently show in the hotels. Buses weren't needed then because all WDW hotels were on the monorail.>> Not true, the Disney Inn was not on the monorail loop neither were the treehouse villas. One thing I noticed on all three clips was that the hotels in Downtown Disney were never mentioned. Of course Disney is going to downplay their existance, but they have always been there and on Disney property. <<Glorious lack of strollers - I'm sure some existed in 87 though probably far fewer. With none of the Moderate or Value Resorts open then far fewer families with very young children could afford to go to WDW.>> I don't think it had to do with affordability as anyone could stay at the campground and there were hundreds of motels off property (where my family stayed on our first trip to WDW back in 1978). It's always been affordable. I think it had more to do with the fact that WDW really never had anything to offer for the toddler crowd. And those were back in the days when few people took their toddlers with them to restaurants, let alone transcontinental airplane flights, Weddings and nighclubs. <<I think the major difference in "feel" of WDW in 1987 comes down to two things:>> Agreed! Yes, I think Disney doesn't have the feel it use to. I look at these old videos and see how clean the parks how. How freshly painted "all" the rides look (even the ceilings on the blueline in Tomorrowland are freshly painted). And the costumes of the Castmembers look far more upscale and detailed than the "jumpsuits" of today. There looked like there was much more consideration given to detail in the parks, more live entertainment, characters actually roaming the parks. Back in those days you didn't need character meet and greets or character meals because you actually got to meet the characters "in the parks". Horse drawn trolleys, fire truck, double decker bus ON MAIN STREET!!! When was the last time that happened? Back then you could take your time and enjoy the parks. Nowadays, the parks seem to be obsessed with crowd control, que waiting periods, Meal plan resevations times. Now a WDW vacation is vastly regimented and scheduled around "DISNEY's" offerings. Totally different from decades ago when it was slower paced, carefree and on your own schedule. Back then you didn't have to buy Bronner's Guide to WDW for tips on the corrrect sequence of rides/ attractions so you can see the MK in one or two days. Before the Disney meal plan restaurants were actually open all the time. Now, many of Disney's resort restaurants are only open for select meals (typically breakfast and dinner only) and Disney still has some restaurants shuttered up for years; Adventureland Verranda, Aunt Polly's Place on Tom Sawyer Island, Odyssey restaurant in EPCOT. It's rather disenfranchising being turned away at sitdown restaurants in WDW because your not participating in the Disney meal plan when there are Disney restaurants shuttered up in the same parks nearby. Back then you were considered by Disney to be a quest and while you were on property everything was made available to you. Now, unless your participating in some all inclusive on property Disney vacation package then there are intentionally few meal options, park experience options (NO Extra Magic Hours). You feel like your getting a substandard Disney vacation experience, it's like being in steerage! <<We do not need to set the clock back though. We were always meant to go forward. A return to the Disney philosophy of the day is what is needed.>> From your lips to God's ears!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom << I don't think the new Little Mermaid attraction is going to begin to compete with Harry Potter's attraction. It COULD have, but Disney doesn't want to spend the money.>> Agreed! With a couple exceptions it seems most of Disney newest rides attractions are "half a ride". The Little Mermaid should be twice as long. Expedition Everest should be four times as long. I'm afraid the days of building rides on the scale of PoTC, JBC, IaSW and the Haunted Mansion are long gone. Now Disney seems to be content to "plus" them up by adding interactive queues.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<It just means fat people prefer WDW also.>> A trick Disney learned from the cruiseline and casino industries, all you can eat buffets. Set price, chow down. And look how many all you can eat buffets are on WDW property. In one respect Disney is just giving the populus what they want. You can still visit WDW and eat healthy. And, fat free doesn't mean calorie free.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<But no one is ever going to convince me that buses are MAGICal or were a smart way of solving the resort's transport issues. They show no vision at all.>> As WDW increasingly became a sprauling areas of dozens and dozens of mega resorts, the buses were the most economical way for Disney to "move" people between resorts, shopping areas and the parks. The alternative prior to the Disney buses was people driving between hotels, parks, shopping complexes. The buses at least cut down on the mass need for parking lots. Granted I also would like to see something other than your typically city public transportation buses found in "anywhere USA". My understanding was that Disney bought used buses and dropped new engines in them creating a huge savings for Disney. Yes, Disney could have sunk a billion into a third monorail loop and a people mover network. But, instead a decision was made to spend that money on MGM, Boardwalk, Yacht club/ Beach club resorts complexes while expanding the Disney bus system as well as Disney's on property vacation planning facilities (There is much more to Disney than "just" it's parks and resorts afterall). And a third monorail loop still would not have transported people around
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom A third monorail loop would not have transported people around as quickly and efficiently as individual buses do.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 Watching this (and i think i actually remember watching it cause my first stay in a Disney Resort was Contemp Garden Wing NYE 1989), it feels like WDW got sold off....and sold off to something like, CedarFair. This is why DL is getting more fan love. Because WDW has ceased to pretend it's run by the WALT DISNEY Company. I remember when the Marketplace was a PURE CLASS act. NO disney merch except at the Character Shop. The regalness of the Empress Lily (what i called in my youth "The Clean Haunted Mansion"). Do you REALLY think TDO would have a restaurant like the Empress Room now w/ Louis VX decor? It would be too adult. And again, as you see, the character meals were not in the parks, save for Electric Umbrella and that wasn;t even really an organized one as it was counter service. So it was technically FREE. Well so much has been said. Yes the clientele base started degrading sometime around the values popped up, but it really got trashy around '08-'09 when WDW started thier "blue light/"we're going out of business!" pricing and wow. The people that you saw in MK were SCARY and you wondered HOW IN THE WORLD these people could afford to be at WDW and stay on property. Like Spirit i am a massive Disney snob and my time in the parks has been reduce due to such a lower level of cleintele.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>The fact that there are 5 DVCs planned, all of which will undoubtedly happen is sickening, especially when I doubt there will be 5 attractions built in the same time period.<< Several years ago, in a private conversation with a long time Imagineer, I heard a statement that has resonated more and more over the years. He said that the people in charge of P&R believed that shops and restaurants make money, and attractions cost money. So that is why DCA opened with a staggering array of shops and food outlets, and a paucity of attractions. It stands to reason that this same attitude can be applied to DVC properties. Lavish new resort properties "make" money; new theme parks and attractions "cost" money. This is what happens when there is a fundamental lack of balance between "show" and "business." Walt Disney always stated that Disneyland was a show. And Walt (and brother Roy) were in show business. They understood that if you put on a good show (ie: built compelling, quality attractions), people would be happy to spend their money. Disneyland's greatest expansion was (arguably) New Orleans Square-- a collection of great shops, restaurants, and ONE attraction (Pirates-- the HM opened two years later). No one complained back then, because Pirates was such a great part of the show, and the shops and restaurants were needed to bring balance to all of Disneyland, which was stuffed with attractions. Sad that no one in charge at P&R seems to be able to grasp this today.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Now a WDW vacation is vastly regimented and scheduled around "DISNEY's" offerings. Totally different from decades ago when it was slower paced, carefree and on your own schedule.<< I am among those who see this not just as a Disney problem, but a reality of our society today. My first trip ever to the MK was in 1989. There was a show in front of the castle, and afterward, a group of characters stepped down front to "casually" greet guests. The mob scene that ensued was not pretty-- elbows flew and people all but cursed as they pushed their kids into place to get that all-important photo. Character meet 'n greets are now a necessity-- the idea that Mary Poppins or Goofy could casually stroll through the MK today is a fantasy. The way this has been extended into every aspect of a WDW trip is troubling. And, obviously, profit is the sole motive for some of these "amenities." I prefer a casual touring plan, with a certain degree of spontaneity. But I also recognize that this just isn't the best way to get through an extended stay at Walt Disney World in the 21st century.
Originally Posted By Fe Maiden <<Back then you didn't have to buy Bronner's Guide to WDW for tips on the corrrect sequence of rides/ attractions so you can see the MK in one or two days.>> You can still see the MK in 1 or 2 days. That's easy; it's trying to fit 3 other theme parks into the same week. <<Now a WDW vacation is vastly regimented and scheduled around "DISNEY's" offerings. Totally different from decades ago when it was slower paced, carefree and on your own schedule.>> But why can't it be slower paced and carefree, it's YOUR vacation. As amazing as this sounds, not once the entire time I was in WDW last week, did someone from Disney jump out behind a bush, twist my arm around my back, and force me to go see Wishes or LMA or any other of Disney's "offerings". We did what we wanted and everyday we actually changed our plans on the fly with at least one ADR (non-DDP) scheduled every day. It wasn't that hard actually.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I don't have time to devote to this (or any other) thread today, but before it spirals out in all sorts of directions, I need to restate something. And I wish people would read what I am writing and actually think about it before responding. But I am NOT saying WDW is a lesser place because more people can afford it today. And that somehow, this is why you see more trashier folks soaking up the pixie dust. I am saying the exact opposite. WDW is a vastly more expensive vacation destination now than it was in 1987. And since wages haven't increased (in the USA) and our economy is in free-fall, my point is fewer people can afford a WDW vacation. I don't know if its the addition of things like so-called value resorts or timeshares (where you pay for 43 years worth of points either upfront of in a short set period of years, like a car loan) that are confusing some people ... but WDW is LESS affordable now to MORE people. More people may be staying on-property than in 1987 because back then the options were very limited, but that's doesn't equate that WDW is now more affordable because that is simply not the case.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<More people may be staying on-property than in 1987 because back then the options were very limited, but that's doesn't equate that WDW is now more affordable because that is simply not the case.>> Staying ON SITE at WDW is far less expensive today than it was in 1987. That is what I was talking about.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom My understanding from those who have participated in the Disney dining plan is that it can greatly impact your daily park schedule because you are obligated to be at your prereserved restaurant for your scheduled time. And Disney gives no leeway around those scheduled times. Without fail everytime I have vacationed at WDW with family members or friends who have participated in the Disney dining plan, something has gone wrong where they could not get to their planned restaurant for the scheduled time. Resulting in their meals being forfeit. As someone who has stayed at the Animal Kingdom Lodge and did not participate in the Disney dining plan I could not eat at Boma or Jinko as they were fully reserved during my stay. I'm sorry but that is just plain crazy when your staying at a specific resort and during your stay you can never experience any of the sit down restaurants at that resort because individuals participating in the Disney dining plan are given preferential treatment. As far as I'm concerned the Animal Kingdom Lodge should have tables in sitdown restaurants available to onsite guests and no one is going to be able to convince me otherwise. People staying at a specific resort should be "shutout" of on site sitdown restaurants. And this only came about once the Disney dining plan was instituted. Boatwright's at POR use to be open for lunch pre Disney dining plan. The Disney dining plan is for Disney's benefit and not the guests. It allows Disney to plan for staff allocations well in advance. It does nothing to enhance the guests dining experience. It use to be you could just walk up to any sitdown restaurant in WDW and wait for a table. Now, unless you have resevations it's highly unlikely your going to get a sitdown table period. Also, it use to be when you when up to a Disney sitdown restaurant and all the tables were full the cast members would help you with locating a restaurant (in the same park) that had tables available. Now, cast members just let you know that they are and will be no tables available and send you on your way, OR they write on a peice of paper and tape it to their sign out in front (like I saw done at the Liberty Tree Tavern) that they are only accepting resevations.
Originally Posted By Fe Maiden <<My understanding from those who have participated in the Disney dining plan is that it can greatly impact your daily park schedule because you are obligated to be at your prereserved restaurant for your scheduled time. And Disney gives no leeway around those scheduled times. Without fail everytime I have vacationed at WDW with family members or friends who have participated in the Disney dining plan, something has gone wrong where they could not get to their planned restaurant for the scheduled time.>> Our past two visits to WDW we have not been on the DDP and I would never ever use it again. We tried it once and because we prepaid we had to stop what we were doing and go eat. Most of the time this is OK but there were times we wanted to do something else and didn't because we had to go eat. One of the things I most look forward to is having a nice sitdown meal and not being on the DDP has opened up so much more flexibility into our schedule. Last Wednesday for instance we had Chef Mickey's scheduled for 8am and Ohana's in the evening at 6:30. This is the one day we had planned to play by ear and it looked like we were going to the MK after Chef Mickeys. The night before the kids suggested we go to BB so we did that instead. As a result we spent the whole day there, till closing. Took our time getting back to the room, changed, went to the MK anyway, and had a nice quiet meal at Columbia Harbor House. It was a perfect day. But if we were on the DDP we would have cut our day short at BB, rushed back to the WL to get ready for dinner at the Poly. After being on water slides and in the pool all day, the kids would have fallen asleep and would have been harder to wake up than the dead. We would have trudged through all because we spent the money already. More than likely it would have been a miserable experience.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<But why can't it be slower paced and carefree, it's YOUR vacation.>> It is your vacation and is should be at your own pace. But, while vacationing at WDW you are at Disney's leisure. For example, suppose a marathon is going on and all the roads are shut down. Can't leave your resort, too bad! Suppose you want to eat at a Disney sitdown restaurant and no resevations, too bad! Suppose your leaving the Magic Kingdom and no boats are running and there is a delay with the monorails and everyone takes to the road walking under the water bridge so that WDW resort buses can't run. And althought no one from Disney jumped out from behind a bush to twist your arm, I'm sure no cast members jumped out to clean up trash off the ground like they use to do. There was a time when all the sidewalks and street on Main Street USA was steam cleaned each night.
Originally Posted By GOB Regarding the obesity issue, the way I heard it explained to me was that the climate of California is one that encourages physical activity, or at least facilitates it. You see bike paths and healthy people all of the time over there because the climate is mild and constant year 'round. Going for a 10 mile bike ride starting on that path right in front of the Santa Monica Pier during June is much more pleasant than say a similar bike ride or jog in June in New York City or the South. When walking along one of the many bike paths in CA, I was shocked to see the amount of joggers, rollerskaters, bikers, walkers etc. on a weekday afternoon. Growing up on the East Coast, I never saw anything like that.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom On my last trip to WDW my party vacationed with my brother and his family. My party was staying at the Best Western in Downtown Disney and we were not participating in the Disney dining plan. My brother and his family were staying at Pop Century and had the Disney dining plan. We pretty much planned on hanging out together most of the time. The difference was that my brother and his family made plans to get up every morning and hit the parks mega early. We planned on sleeping in and not getting into the parks until maybe 10 AM or so. On one day we all spent the entire day together at EPCOT. My brother and his family had dinner resevations at the Mexican Pavallion for dinner. We all went and they asked if we could have a larger table to accomidate the entire party. We were all told "no" that wasn't going to happen (understandably). My brother and his wife looked at the menu and saw that the children's menu had changed which created a major problem as their son is developementally disabled and has strict dietary needs. So, my brother and his family knew there was no way they could eat there even if my party was excluded. My party wanted to eat over at the Big River Grill and Brewing works at Boardwalk. We convinced my brother and his family to tag along even though there were insisting on just going back to their resort at that point. We untimately convinced them to eat at the Big River Grill and Brewing Works with us. BRGB had tables available (inside, that was another requirement for their son) took my party, accept my brother's family's meal plan AND had exactly what my brother and his wife wanted to get for their son on the children's menu. We all had a great time and meal! It was perhaps our best meal on property. Because we ate nearby we after dinner we reentered EPCOT and all watched illuminations and had an incredible evening. My party got to enjoy dinner where we planned to eat anyway that night. My brother and his family got to try a "new" sitdown restaurant on property.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<As someone who has stayed at the Animal Kingdom Lodge and did not participate in the Disney dining plan I could not eat at Boma or Jinko as they were fully reserved during my stay.>> You must have been there at a peak attendance time. I just went to the Disney Dining Reservations and could have made a reservation at Boma for 5:00 today and one at Jiko for 5:40 today.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom As far as the obesity issue is concerned, I can careless. And I think everyone should get to enjoy the Disney parks. And for the record, I don't think it should cost a fortune to vacation at WDW. The greatest barrior I find most people I know who have never been to a Disney park and are not planning on going is because they all believe it's going to be expensive. I have to work hard to convince them otherwise! And those that I have convinced take my advise.... take the measure and save the bucks and walk away having fun at less cost. They all end up being convinced in the end. I find it so ironic that many people here are argueing that Disney is so inexpensive to visit when the overwhelming impression is on the rest of the USA populations is it's unaffordable (even before the economy collapsed).
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Roadtrip I typically when I vacation at WDW it's during the months of October, January, February or March. And as far as I'm concerned, regardless of peak or non-peak times if your staying at that resort there should be some tables set aside at sitdown restaurants for onsite guests. We were told upon check in that every sitdown restaurant (it was during October) was book that entire week). We ended up getting very familuar with Mara. Which is incredible! You get to try everything! I ended up eating grilled chicken salad and squash soup constantly with zebra domes for dessert. As far as I'm concerned AKL's grilled chicken ceasar salad is the best on property and it's cheap, cheap, cheap at Mara! Just give me that, squash soup and zebra domes and I'm in heaven! Honestly, it's a shame many peole don't know about Mara, they spring for the big bucks for Boma and think they are getting incredible food when you can do it a la cart (and exactly what you want) at Mara. In many respects it makes no sense for me to go to a high priced buffet as I don't like steak (often the high dollar food on the buffet). Granted Mara isn't as glamorous as Boma or Jinko but it still has many of the same incredible food.
