Originally Posted By DAR That's pretty spot on. If you look around here, look how many who are right or even right leaning don't or hardly post i WE. We're always being told we're the problem. Maybe it's time some took a long hard look at themselves and how they treat people. But of course you call anyone on it and they give you this Family Circus like "Who Me?" response.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 DAR, I like you. You seem like a good guy and you're often very funny. I have no problem with you personally. However, when you say things like "you liberals just want to tuck in Al Qaeda at night and freak out if they get anything harsher," you're going to be called on it, because it's inaccurate. That doesn't constitute treating you badly, it constitutes holding you to standards of accuracy I would hope you would hold for yourself.
Originally Posted By Mr X So Passholder writes an excellent note about what, exactly, is causing you DAR to set people off so much and you blow it off completely...but then are happy to note "spot on" to barboy for semi-defending you (I wonder if you realize what obstinate means though). Go back and read Passholders comments, they are very accurate and could be helpful if you want them to be (nowhere in those comments does he suggest you need to change your view on things, just thought I'd let you know since you obviously never read it). Oh, and Barboy, rotfl!
Originally Posted By dlkozy >>>" We convicted plenty of scumbags in those trials AND upheld our system of justice..."<<< Sadly not enough. Not only did we not hunt them down like we should have (really after 50 years we are still trying to find some-and DO!) many of those scumbags skipped justice all together and wound up in the US and this was during the trials. No justice for the victims in those cases.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan We're always being told we're the problem.<< Oh, boo hoo. You make a bunch of nonsense claims that several of us are basically terrorist sympathizers, and when there is some blowback from that, you want to play the victim? Brother. Tell you what DAR: Apology not accepted. I don't need it or want it. If you really are sorry that you painted several of us as wanting to baby terrorists, then stop doing it.
Originally Posted By DAR Fine Kar2oonman you and others want these guys to be punished but within in the law. I happen to believe that we need to get our hands dirty to truly win this war. And if it means bending the law then so be it. Most of you don't. It doesn't make one more right than other we just have different methods.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <>>>" We convicted plenty of scumbags in those trials AND upheld our system of justice..."<<< <Sadly not enough. Not only did we not hunt them down like we should have (really after 50 years we are still trying to find some-and DO!) many of those scumbags skipped justice all together and wound up in the US and this was during the trials.> True enough to an extent. Both the US and the Soviets were interested in certain Nazis (especially scientists) and looked the other way in some cases to bring them here (or the Soviet Union). But it doesn't negate the point that we could have convicted them if we had wanted to within our system of justice. There also is no real equivalent situation within al Qaeda, so no real danger of repeating that particular history.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I happen to believe that we need to get our hands dirty to truly win this war. And if it means bending the law then so be it. Most of you don't. It doesn't make one more right than other we just have different methods.> I'm not sure that's right either. You have stated more than once that you're fine with torturing these guys. Putting aside the moral question for a minute of torturing possibly innocent people that we later let go (or even the moral question of torturing the guilty), there's the efficacy question. As logical as it may SEEM at first glance to think we can get actionable intelligence from torture, most experts in the field agree that you're more likely to get bad information that way. Most people will say anything to get you to stop. John McCain can tell you that someone determined not to spill vital information can do it. Abu Zabaydah gave us nothing via torture, but gave us useful information using time-tested non-torture techniques. Cheney insists that we got good intelligence via torture, but hides behind "it's still classified" when challenged to provide examples. Meanwhile, CIA and other sources are leaking the idea that NOTHING valuable was actually gleaned through torture, and Cheney is just covering his butt after the fact. So quite apart from the moral question, it seems that non-torture is also the way to go to yield better intel. I know that seems counterintuitive to you, DAR, but that's the way it is.
Originally Posted By mawnck >> It doesn't make one more right than other we just have different methods.<< There's not much in life that's black and white, but this is. You're dead wrong. Your beliefs are the exact opposite of the principles America was founded on. With every post of yours I'm reminded how important it is to work to make sure people with your views stay as far from positions of power as possible.
Originally Posted By DAR If it's a matter of being treated with respect then that is earned. These terrorists have earned that right. Their actions don't warrant it.
Originally Posted By mele <<>> It doesn't make one more right than other we just have different methods.<<>> Hm, care to venture what other kind of people hold this sort of view? Sometimes ARE right and/or wrong. You bitch about the way liberals behave and then you pull some squirrely crap like that out of your behind and want to get away with it? LOL
Originally Posted By DAR <<With every post of yours I'm reminded how important it is to work to make sure people with your views stay as far from positions of power as possible.>> But I'm not running for office.
Originally Posted By DAR It doesn't matter Mele. As a nation that has lead the way for other countries to be free from terrorists we've earned the benefit of the doubt. And apart from the UK why aren't other countries stepping up to the plate.
Originally Posted By mele Yeah, we got our hands dirty and hardly "won the war" on anything. How does giving up your ideals and STILL LOSING give you any comfort? Remember how giving up our ideals was letting the terrorists win? Letting them stop us from traveling, etc, was letting them win. Well, personally, giving up my morals is a hell of a lot worse than giving up my friggin' spending habits. You seem to feel so morally superior in this but your logic is lacking. Severely.
Originally Posted By DAR So we should treat them nicely is what your saying? We shouldn't fight them? You've seen what their capable of, yes?
Originally Posted By mele Nope I have more. DAR, you're not talking about anything than getting revenge. You don't care about protecting jack squat. You just want revenge. Man up and admit it and we can stop these stupid arguments.
