Originally Posted By DAR And yes I'd like to see American's protected. I'd like too see our allies especially Israel protected. Nothing really wrong with that.
Originally Posted By mele Nope. You don't care about protecting America with your attitude. That is clear to all of us. You simply cannot have both attitudes as they are in direct opposition of each other. It's frustrating that you can't see it but that's how it is with people who are behaving as you're behaving. Shrug. I'm not wasting any more time trying to get you to see it. You're proud of yourself but we can all see this behavior/attitude for what it is.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I'm not wasting any more time trying to get you to see it.<< Yeah you are. Knowing me I probably will too, even though there seems to be no point to it. You cannot force people to think if they're determined not to. How in the 9th circle of Hades did the United States of America end up with a large subculture where **deliberately** being dumb as a cinder block is considered desirable, and even patriotic?
Originally Posted By DAR <<You cannot force people to think if they're determined not to.>> No you cannot force people to change their minds or admit their wrong.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'd like too see our allies especially Israel protected.*** Okay, now you just sound like a parrot. Why on earth would you say "especially" Israel?
Originally Posted By DAR Oh I don't because one country in particular rhymes fan, wants to wipe them off the Earth. See also: Holocaust.
Originally Posted By Mr X That still doesn't explain why you want them "especially" protected. It wouldn't be so bad if, say, England or Canada were attacked? I don't see why Israel is so special. In fact, they haven't been the greatest of allies quite frankly.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo DAR and William, when it comes to torture, 2 wrongs do not make a right. The best way to behave in international affairs is to behave in the way that is morale and just. It is the only way to make progress. My biggest problem with Bush was that he undermined the honour of America, and is one of the worst enemies America has had, certainly from within. I HATE him with a passion, and I hate all those that stood by him.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 DAR and William, when it comes to torture, 2 wrongs do not make a right. << No they don't, but if you need to use "Excessive" force to get some information in order to save American lives in the long run, then so be it....
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I understand those sentiments of one working in the armed forces, but I cannot subscribe to that doctrine. Ghandi was right when asked what he thought of Western civilisation. He replied it would be a great idea.
Originally Posted By DAR <<It wouldn't be so bad if, say, England or Canada were attacked?>> It would be awful.
Originally Posted By Mr X "No they don't, but if you need to use "Excessive" force to get some information in order to save American lives in the long run, then so be it...." Why are you repeating an already oft debunked, outright lie? Are you so dishonest? Or, is this news to you? I can only figure one or the other, is there a third reason? Do you have evidence no one else has shared?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***<<It wouldn't be so bad if, say, England or Canada were attacked?>> It would be awful.*** Okay then, I'll repeat my question to you. Why "especially" Israel? I really don't get it, DAR. Please explain.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I think the issue with Israel is a difficult one in as much as it is surrounded by countries that would like to see it disappear. They have not helped themselves either over the last 100 years. The US has a number of decendents of holocaust suvivors and was the first nation to recognise judaism as equal. There are deep ties. Also the fact Isreal is a nuclear power gives a reason to keep close.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Also the fact Isreal is a nuclear power gives a reason to keep close.*** Actually, that big huge gigantic lie is one reason why I *don't* consider them much of an ally. That, and the fact that the Israeli lobby is practically the strongest one in Washington (reason why Sarah Palin "endorsed" them when she had not a CLUE as to who they are and WHY we are allies with them).
Originally Posted By Mr X The "big lie" about Israel and all the propaganda is one of those things I think more posters should research and learn about (talking to YOU, DAR)...it's not anti-semetic to complain about Israeli government activities...any more than it's anti-American to complain about U.S. government activities when they are illegal or immoral... In this, the race card is king but it really should not be.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo We are on the same page. As an ally of Israel, there is a modicum of hope that we can dissuade them from doing anything too rash. I do not know enough detail, but I would not be surprised if it were our fault that Israel does have nuclear arms. After all, it was our arms used against us in Iraq. and many Americans and Brits got very rich over that trade. I think Iron Man delivers a good set of lessons on some of those issues.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo That is an interesting point X. Having been to many middle Eastern countries, you are right that race is a consideration here (and one that I had not really given much thought). What is really funny is that Israel try really hard to be included in as many European considerations as possible (including the camp Eurovision Song contest - won by an Israeli Transvestite Dana International a few years ago - she/he/it was not very orthodox!).
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Why are you repeating an already oft debunked, outright lie?<< What I stated was my personal opinion on when I feel torture should be allowed, I was not making any reference to any past or present policy, get off your friggin high horse and let me have my opinion, it is not a lie if it's my frigging opinion... When I get a chance, I am going to link you all to an article about a Colonel a few years ago, who placed a gun on the forehead of a "terrorist" in Iraq, he did what he could to get the information from the person, and eventually did so, saving lives in the process, unfortunately, he also lost his command and had to leave the army for violating policy... This was the case I was inferring to when I stated my opinion, so with all do respect Mr. X ST*U...
