Originally Posted By TomSawyer "People dragged here against their will, forced into a lifetime of enslavement, children and spouses taken from them, treated worse than family pets. $33,000? $33 million? Money can't fix that, can't fix history, can't make up for what was done." No one alive in the United States today went through that unless they lived in Mauritania or one of the other (ironically) African countries where slavery is still practiced. The experience of Africans as slaves was horrible, and we should continue the programs like affirmative action and increased funding to poor communities that mitigate institutionalized racism. These aren't reparations - no one alive today was ever a slave in the United States. These are payments to mitigate the effects of racism. Frankly, we'd be a lot better off using that money directly in the communities rather than writing checks.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The logistics of reparations are problematic. But equally problematic is refusing to undertake even the kind of study as proposed in HR 40. As i said, that's at least as important as any money given. AFAIK, no money was given at all in South Africa, but they DEALT with it. We refuse to fully face it, far beyond slavery. (And the author, very pointedly, hardly talked about slavery at all.). And so the problem continues to fester.
Originally Posted By ecdc White supremacy (think about the words and what they mean) is the foundation of American democracy. (It's not a bunch of skinheads marching.) It is the foundation as a matter of policy and it can only be faced and reckoned with new policies. It is not a thing that happened; it is who we are. If you look at wealth gaps, incarceration gaps, health gaps, etc., whites are far ahead in every single positive way in the U.S. That is white supremacy in action. The same people who insist reparations aren't necessary and are unworkable are usually the same people who insist affirmative action and other policies that exist directly to remedy the imbalance created by white supremacy are now unnecessary or are unworkable. So what *specific* government policies should we adopt to remedy the ongoing white supremacy that exists in America because of government policies that existed for three hundred years? Since apparently everything is just unrealistic and unworkable what solution is there? (It's easy to say something won't work when you've been the lifelong benefit of white supremacy, which every single one of us has been.) As Coates said on Bill Moyers, the progress that's been made is a relief, it's not a cause for celebration. The end of Jim Crow is a relief; it's not a cause to celebrate what amazing people we all are because we decided not to be terrible racist human beings. That's like congratulating ourselves because we stopped beating someone with a tire iron. It's good the beating stopped, but the person is laying on the ground bleeding. How do we confront that behavior and remedy it? A discussion about reparations is as good a way to do that as any. But people (as Coates noted) use the unpopularity of reparations as a way to dismiss the issue and therefore avoid the ongoing issues of policy-based white supremacy that continues today.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Once again, where does the American Indian stand regarding the issue of reparations? Could they not present an even stronger case? Has our country's treatment of these people been adequate? Is it simply a matter of political motivation? If reparations were instated, they would have to apply to all victims, not just those of a particular race. To do otherwise would be unjust. How do you pay back the American Indian for four centuries of genocide, unprovoked warfare, forced internment, land swindles, and countless other terrors?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>If reparations were instated, they would have to apply to all victims, not just those of a particular race.<< No, they wouldn't. It's a false equivalency to compare these different groups. You have to take each one separately and analyze each situation. Invoking other groups is just a way of dismissing the issue and minimizing the institutionalized policies that robbed and created tremendous wealth on the backs of African Americans. But since you mentioned the Native Americans, steps have been taken, including official government policies, to protect them and their lands going back as far as the 1840s. If you want to have a conversation about better ways to help Native Americans and institute reparations, that's great. But it's a separate conversation and shouldn't be invoked as a way of dismissing black reparations or just continuing to insist, without even attempting to look at the plausibility of the issue, that reparations are unworkable.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Once again, where does the American Indian stand regarding the issue of reparations?*** If you really want to use the old "let me repeat myself" line, as though you'd been ignored, you might at least acknowledge the fact that you were dead wrong on half of your argument (the Japanese) and thank SuperDry for setting you straight in the process. As for the Indians, as ecdc mentions they are certainly a separate (though no less important) group, and the process of payback has been an ongoing effort via reservation lands and such. Not saying it's perfect, just saying there's a process there for making up for the horrible way they were treated. Frankly, if I was wronged by some powerful force, an exclusive gaming license might just go a long way towards repairing the damage, at least financially speaking (and yes, I realize that Indian Casino's are not, strictly speaking, a form of reparations).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It is a murky swamp when you start trying to "help" a class of people. Have Reservations helped Native Americans or hurt them in the long run? I think you would have to say the latter. The same is true of many low income programs... which have served to make single parenthood somewhat less economically disastrous; thereby trapping many in a permanently lower class lifestyle... both black and white. Plenty of impoverished single parent white families down here in hillbilly-land.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I never thought I was being ignored, I thought it was a valid point, and still do. Regarding the Japanese reference. Many people do not feel these payments were adequate for the wrongs endured. There is still bitterness. Reparations would set a legal standard that would have to apply to all people with a pertinent case. Substantial and meaningful compensation to the African American community would open the floodgates for litigation from every tribe in the United States. Different cases perhaps, but the similarities are too numerous to dismiss.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ And frankly, as bad as the history is, Black people are far better off today than they were when they first came to America. You certainly can't say the same for Native Americans. They have had FAR MORE taken from them... they lost an entire country. To a certain extent, if reparations are due Black people they should be paid by the slave-trading African nations that sold them into slavery in the first place. Of course that wouldn't do much to eradicate the white liberal guilt that ecdc so obviously suffers from.
Originally Posted By ecdc If you all who are suddenly so worried about Native Americans would like to start a thread on Native American reparations, complete with a lengthy article on the history of white kleptocracy against Natives, and how reparations could remedy the problems, I will gladly participate. Until then, the continued false equivalency is just intellectually lazy (and just reinforces my suspicion that you didn't bother to read the article in the OP). These two things are not the same; they're only the same if you're ignorant of the details but just kinda vaguely familiar that African Americans and Native Americans were mistreated. It's a bit like saying the respective management of Disneyland and Luna Park at Coney Island should totally approach problems exactly the same way because they both have rides and are relatively close to beaches. Your ignorance of African American and Native American history is a pretty crappy excuse to dismiss discussions of reparations.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip You don't always need to know a full history to know that on the surface it is a dumb-azz idea.
Originally Posted By ecdc How very Republicanesque. We don't need to know stuff about stuff before we decide stuff. That makes perfect sense! This is the common MO every time someone tries to discuss ongoing issues of race: equate "things are better" with "we don't need to do anything else," portray any policy discussion as far-left kooky and dangerous, insist reverse racism is the real problem, and falsely equate one group's persecution with another's, all of which only serves to reinforce the need for something like reparations. No white guilt here, just an understanding that white privilege is very real and I don't need to get all defensive and pissed off when that privilege is pointed out and try and obfuscate the issue by talking about how women, natives, and everyone else were treated.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Many people do not feel these payments were adequate for the wrongs endured. There is still bitterness*** Now you're just moving the goalposts. You originally asserted that this would open a Pandora's box of litigation. You claimed that Indians might have a case for illegal ownership of land, and that the Japanese Americans "could do some damage from internment camp violations during WW2". The point is, the Japanese *did* do some damage, and won their case. That was pointed out to you, which was my point.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Substantial and meaningful compensation to the African American community would open the floodgates for litigation from every tribe in the United States*** Even if so, why is that a bad thing?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<This is the common MO every time someone tries to discuss ongoing issues of race: equate "things are better" with "we don't need to do anything else,">> I NEVER said we don't need to do anything else. I just don't think reparations are the way to go about it. <<So I think improvement HAS been made, and we need continued efforts to provide equality. In the long run that will do more than writing a check to relieve ourselves of guilt.>> Dropping a chunk of money in people's laps usually does very little to change a person's life for the better in the long term (see: lottery winners). It could also provoke white jealousy and resentment making their situation even worse than it is now. Sorry... it is just a dumb idea on the surface.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Reparations would set a legal standard that would have to apply to all people with a pertinent case.> Well, no. As Mr. X points out, the Japanese-Americans DID receive reparations, quite some time ago, and yet no one else has. So that argument is on its face illogical.
Originally Posted By Mr X Actually SD pointed it out, but yeah, this sort of issue must certainly be case-by-case.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Okay. You pointed out that SD pointed it out. And i pointed that out. It's like an isosceles triangle! (Odd Couple reference...)
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Dropping a chunk of money in people's laps usually does very little to change a person's life for the better in the long term<< The fact that you keep saying that shows that you just didn't read the article. The author, and no one here, is advocating "dropping money in people's laps." But go right on beating up that strawman. What the author advocates, and I support, is the exploration of how reparations might work. There's several possible outcomes, only one of which involves cutting checks. You hear reparations and you respond to some right-wing caricature of it, not what people are actually talking about.
